USB host functionality? [Archive]

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rdkay

19-08-2005, 10:28 AM

Has it USB host functionality to attach e.g. a hard drive?

Would be interesting to know :)

Regards,
Rainer

RAGOv

19-08-2005, 12:46 PM

since universals cpu is PXA27x.....(272),then it has a USB host functionnality...and if u are wondering...then yes...this means that u can connect ur HDD to it,and guess what....it's the first HTC device with USB 2.0,so imagine!!!!!!! :D

RAGO :lol:

rdkay

19-08-2005, 01:03 PM

:P Great news!!! Makes me wanna get this device even more :P :P :P

saldous

19-08-2005, 01:07 PM

So you want to carry a big device around and then an external hard disk drive! Seems a bit over the top for something to do your phone / email on.

musawi

19-08-2005, 01:11 PM

But isnt the USB on the MDA IV mini usb? How do normal usb devices work on a mini usb port?

chris281080

19-08-2005, 01:26 PM

Magician has also an Intel PXA272 but as far as I know USB-Host isnt working. If it works please correct me.

Lets hope that USB-Host will work on Universal.

Has anyone tried USB-Host on Universal yet?

Btw is there another cable needed (are other Pins of the 5 in the MiniUSB Plug used?) or just an adapter for the end of the USB-Cabel

Rudegar

19-08-2005, 02:01 PM

Has anyone tried USB-Host on Universal yet?
the device have been been released yet so unless people here
get early samples to review i dont think anybody have tried it yet
[/b]

Tekguru

19-08-2005, 04:16 PM

No time or kit handy to test I'm afraid.

dgpurvis

20-08-2005, 01:39 AM

I got sent some info that claimed the Universal does have USB host (from someone claiming to have one for testing but is under NDA) - but nothing confirmed or proved.

Having a PXA27x processor does not have to mean that the USB host functionality is made use of. The HP iPAQ hx4700 and Dell Axim X50v both have processors capable of USB hosting - but neither device makes use of it.

RAGOv

20-08-2005, 02:40 AM

Mvmajorem

20-08-2005, 05:06 AM

A bit extreme though and I find it hard to accept that we need a USB client for the device. I mean what's next, having ActiveSync installed in the Universal and have other handheld devices sync in it as well? Weird...

Still the idea seems good...

dgpurvis

20-08-2005, 06:12 AM

Having a PXA27x processor does not have to mean that the USB host functionality is made use of. The HP iPAQ hx4700 and Dell Axim X50v both have processors capable of USB hosting - but neither device makes use of it.

I didn't say that ONLY PXA27x have USB hosting functionality,and am quite sure ur right concerning the iPAQ and the Axim.... :wink:
"PXA27x CPUs have USB host functionality",said Intel:

"Does the Intel® PXA27x family processors support USB Host in addition to USB Client?
Yes, the Intel® PXA27x family processors, supports USB HOST and Client (Rev. 1.1 compliance) and USB On-The-Go (OTG). "

Read this http://www.intel.com/design/pca/applicationsprocessors/faq/pxa27x_faq.htm#usb

Still...untill the Universal is released and fully tested,all we are saying remains theories :wink:
untill then.......

greetings..

RAGO :lol:

Er... what?! I'm not sure you read my point at all...!? I said nothing about whether other processors have USB host or not - I'm not at all sure why you think I did?!

I simply pointed out that PDAs with the PXA27x processor don't always make use of its USB host functionality. In your original post you appeared to suggest that the presence of the PXA27x would mean the Unviersal definitely has host functionality - I was correcting that.

BTW - don't assume either that the Universal has USB 2.0 - I've not seen a single report that it does - and though the PXA27x does support it - only one Pocket PC with that processor has, to date, implemented it.

Remember - the XDA IIi has a PXA272 processor - and has USB Client 1.1 only and no USB host.

Bonzo

25-08-2005, 09:01 AM

Come on people!
Surely, there are several testers on this forum already..
Why haven't you tested this yet?

Rudegar

25-08-2005, 09:42 AM

who are the testers?
i havent seen any
but then i'm a bat ;)

well one problem with testing i guess is getting the cable
guess it would need usbA or B depending on the type of usb mass storage controller in one end and a universal connector in the other
if no such cable came with the device then
maybe people would have to make the cable themselvs

nabil2000

22-09-2005, 12:09 AM

Well dudes, I sent an email to clubimate techsupport asking them about usb hosting capability, still waiting for an answer... maybe if enough people email them, they will take notice and put it in their faq or whatever...
greetings
Nabil H

Daimaou

22-09-2005, 03:15 AM

I tired on my JASJAR and didn't work...

cr2

22-09-2005, 09:55 AM

At least JASJAR has the usbd.dll and usbhid.dll.

akira

22-09-2005, 11:09 AM

i will try tonight

mda pro -> mini usb -> mini usb -> creative Zen micro Mass storage 5 gig

22-09-2005, 09:28 PM

i've already tried this.

jasjar-miniUSB w/ USB A-USB A-B gender changer-USB B->external harddisk.

nothing happens :D

cr2

22-09-2005, 09:41 PM

nothing happens :D

Can you connect a keyboard and tell us
what will happen ?

Edit: I'm not a microsoft expert, but if there
is a background program like activesync that
forces the port to slave mode, then nothing should
happen.
I don't remember its name, but this program
should be killed.

22-09-2005, 09:45 PM

nothing happens :D

Can you connect a keyboard and tell us
what will happen ?

same.

cr2

22-09-2005, 09:49 PM

I'm not a microsoft expert, but if there
is a background program like ActiveSync that
forces the port to slave mode, then nothing should
happen.
I don't remember its name, but this program
should be killed.

whtrbt7

22-09-2005, 10:30 PM

Ack!!!!!! I just got the developers explanation for the USB OTG situation. USB OTG has a certification process which means that you need to have the product tested for compliance before it reaches market. Devices supporting USB OTG will have a little green arrow that has On-The-Go logo right below the USB main logo. This can be printed on the box of the product. You can only use 2 USB OTG devices together. If one is OTG compliant and the other is not, it won't work. The second part of OTG is for Hi-speed (don't ask, just accept). Hi-speed is marked with a red arrow above the USB logo if it is compliant. USB OTG is different from USB host and is only meant for "limited" host capabilities. Anyone have a USB OTG HD out there? :lol:

decebal

22-09-2005, 10:40 PM

something like this might do it

http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USBG-OTG1&cats=172&catid=172%2C177%2C140%2C161

cr2

22-09-2005, 10:43 PM

USB OTG is different from USB host and is only meant for "limited" host capabilities.

We are not that much interested in the "pure" OTG functionality. We only want the host mode.
The PXA270 manual says that one needs
the 5V glue logic between the CPU and the USB connector
for the host to be functional.

Anyone have a USB OTG HD out there? :lol:

HD is a slave device and will never be OTG.

Bonzo

23-09-2005, 06:18 AM

What if we looked really hard at the drivers for this
http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/subpages/cfu1u.html

or it's SD equalient?

Maybe there are some files we could copy and modify to our needs?

nabil2000

24-09-2005, 04:34 AM

Bonzo, et al.
If its possible to get an sd io card that provides usb 1.1 hosting function to a pda that has sd io slots, it will be a shame if HTC did not integrate the functionality to the mobo with a usb hosting ready processor... or maybe they are trying to wait to implement it in yet another device to tempt us to upgrade again ;)
Nabil H out

Carnivor

25-09-2005, 12:21 AM

I noticed in the registry

HKLM\system\storagemanager\profiles\USBxxProfile

one for each, cd fdd hdd

so the o/s knows about these things!

and also i see in the TRUEFFS_DOC1 in profiles and entry called Folder with value Extended_ROM and MountHidden with value 0x1, anyone changed this? whats it revealed if anything?

nabil2000

25-09-2005, 08:11 AM

I am very disappointed with club imate technical support, they insult my intelligence by answering another question to the question I asked: Does their imate jasjar offer usb hosting, answer if u want extra storage sd expansion slot up to 2 GB allows you to do so, well here is asus A730W that offers usb hosting, so it can be done, but imate does not even bother to clarify, as probably they are undecided yet I guess: excerpts for the asus A730W advert:
It answers what we were wondering: u can implement usb hosting with windows mobile 5! Let us see if imate will make it worth it for those of us who bought their device! or maybe read and weep if you bought it as I did, and imate decides once again not to listen to their customers (a bit like Nokia or M$ for arrogance I should add)...
" The ASUS A730W is priced right at $569, which is a bit more than the Dell but you do get the camera, two batteries in the box and a USB host cable. Speaking of USB host, the ASUS A730 models are the only VGA Pocket PCs that offer it. So if you have a hankering to use USB mice, keyboards and mass storage devices, the ASUS will please you.
The A730W has a 520MHz Intel XScale processor, 128 megs of RAM, a CF type II slot and an SD slot supporting SDIO, a 1.3 megapixel camera with flash, a user-replaceable battery, Bluetooth, WiFi 802.11b and USB host capabilities. And of course, it has a 3.7" VGA display and runs Windows Mobile 2003 SE. To use USB peripherals, you'll use the included USB host cable which connects to the PDA's sync port and terminates in a standard USB connector. You can enable and disable USB host in the ASUS System Settings applet.

In the box you'll find the PDA, stylus, two Lithium Ion batteries, a charger, cradle, USB host cable, software CD, manual and a horizontal case with belt clip.

The A730W has 128 megs of RAM with 107.43 megs available to the user. This is the maximum amount of RAM that you'll find on a Pocket PC, and beats out the Dell and HP VGA offerings which have 64 megs of RAM.

Expansion

The A730W has an SD slot supporting SDIO and a CF slot that's compatible with type I and type II cards. In addition, you have Bluetooth and IR for further expansion. The USB host feature works well with keyboards, mice and USB mass storage devices. We tested USB keyboards, mice, an Iomega Zip 750 drive, a USB thumb flash drive and a four slot card reader and all worked! We tried a USB CDROM drive but that didn't work. In general, mice, keyboards and flash drives will work. For other devices you'll likely need a driver and USB drivers for Pocket PCs are scarce."

I-Mate listen...

johnz

25-09-2005, 08:38 AM

you aren't right.. try to read something about fsc pocket loox 720/718 ;)
it has usb host also, camera, 128MB ram, 3.6" vga screen..
so asus isn't the only one :)

nabil2000

25-09-2005, 08:41 AM

U mean the one who wrote the article...
This is just to point out that usb hosting is available for those oem's who bother to have it implemented... ;)

nabil2000

26-09-2005, 12:47 AM

I hope that in the rom update imate will have the courtesy of adding usb host functionality...
the asus costs half as much (albeit being a pure pda without a phone, but i rarely use a pda as a phone anyways) and has usb hosting!

rdkay

26-09-2005, 04:12 PM

What about this driver ?
http://www.deje.gmxhome.de/software.html (Mass Storage Driver)

or otherwise stated above:

something like this might do it
http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USBG-OTG1&cats=172&catid=172%2C177%2C140%2C161

Right!! If a remember right there is a driver that can be installed on PPC which make them appear on the PC as a Mass Storage Device!

See this one:

http://www.softick.com/pocket-pc/cardexport2/

This at least should work!! (You have then two Mass storage devices connected to the USB-OTG Connector!)

I haven't yet got my MDA Pro so I cannot try

:?

Regards,
Rainer

sub69

26-09-2005, 04:21 PM

That works for turning your PDA into a mass storage device, but as far as turning your PDA into the *host* for a mass storage device, we're no closer... :-(

(...as there's not much point in plugging one storage device into another one!)

akira

26-09-2005, 04:29 PM

what about this?

http://www.deje.gmxhome.de/software.html

nabil2000

27-09-2005, 12:47 AM

Akira, this usb driver looks promising (http://www.deje.gmxhome.de/software.html) ,

I would give it a try, but I am concerned as it is beta and the author warns about loss of data :(

rdkay

27-09-2005, 10:30 AM

(...as there's not much point in plugging one storage device into another one!)

Well if you wan't e.g. to copy the images from your digital camera (mass storage) to the universal (to send them away) then you can do it with that method!!! But you cannot use mouse, keyboard, etc...

Regards,
Rainer

akira

27-09-2005, 10:38 AM

more bout streaming full screen movies on yer pda in the car
from tha hdd

Rudegar

27-09-2005, 10:46 AM

nabil2000

27-09-2005, 01:53 PM

I am sure if someone could hack into the asus A730W and get all the settings that allow usb hosting connectivity, one might be able to replicate them on the universal, that is if, and that is a big if, the bus of the mobo allows for a link to the processor usb hosting channel, so we need an asus A730W specialist ;), however it seems this could be done in software as our guy in Akira's link above seems to be trying to do... My gut feeling is it can be done, but maybe it requires the additional step of tweaking the hardware as well which is beyond us (HTC is the boss there being the manufacturer, i-mate, O2, T-Mobile just customers ordering hardware specs, and if HTC didnt bother to include that in the mobo, forget it...) Maybe someone bold enough can email HTC and ask :)
Greetings
Nabil H

cr2

27-09-2005, 02:28 PM

Maybe someone bold enough can email HTC and ask :)

It is probably easier to boot Linux on Universal :)
There is a PXA27x ohci host driver there.
You only need to bet that HTC did the wiring.
Many other "power-saving" companies don't do it.
Example: HP jornada 820 -> HP jornada 720.
Both have usb ohci, 720 has no wiring, 820 is
the older model and has the wiring.

sub69

27-09-2005, 04:17 PM

Well if you wan't e.g. to copy the images from your digital camera (mass storage) to the universal (to send them away) then you can do it with that method!!! But you cannot use mouse, keyboard, etc...

Well, I've used this software on my Jam, and once it's running, it basically turns your device into an SD Card reader (for connection purposes). If you plug your PPC into a storage device, you can't actually see that storage device appear in your PPC's File Explorer or anything so there's no way of copying pictures, etc. between the two...

nabil2000

27-09-2005, 05:42 PM

. i emailed again i-mate techsupport with this same issue, but they are still mute, maybe they don't know themselves, so the only ones who know are the HTC guys in taiwan who produce the boards...
. but surely the power saving is not an issue if they give u the option to switch it off as for the Asus A730W.
. I think it is logical, if u gloat that this is a mini-laptop that usb hosting is implemented, + it is never bad to have extra potential functionality anyways, i am sure they are saving this for another hardware release, to make customers buy more, thats all in the spirit of sales...
. I wish I purchased the Asus A730W instead, because for me to have access to massive storage is important
. i wanted a "mini-laptop" because that saves me from carrying a laptop around...
greetings,
Nabil H

nabil2000

27-09-2005, 09:25 PM

I just wrote emails to HTC asking them about this usb hosting, its starting to bug me that we cannot get a straight answer...
let us see how civil they are...
copy of my emaill:
Dear Sir/Madam,
My apologies for writing to you about this matter, but I am getting conflicting information from your different outlets (ie i-mate, o2, t-mobile etc) and IT technology news services.
Can you kindly please answer this question:
Does your HTC Universal support USB hosting capability (since it has a cpu that supports it)?
If so, how does it get activated to recognise external usb devices such as mouse, keyboard, usb storage, etc.
Your answer and co-operation will be much appreciated.
Yours truly
..etc

nabil2000

28-09-2005, 03:48 PM

Hi folks, sorry to burst our bubble of us usb host function fans, this was the response from Maggie Cheng of PR division in HTC:
Hi, Sir,

The HTC Universal doesn’t support USB hosting capability for sure and hope that will clear the confusion you had before.

Regards,

PR/HTC

This thread can now be closed :(

decebal

28-09-2005, 03:50 PM

Unfortunately ... but who knows ... we'll might find out that they did connect all the wires afterall.

nabil2000

28-09-2005, 03:54 PM

If they answer like that i dont think they did (connect all wires) ...

cr2

28-09-2005, 04:51 PM

get all the settings that allow usb hosting connectivity

A730W has a bit more usb dlls than Universal:

usbd.dll
usbhid.dll
USBDISK6.dll
USBMSC.dll
USBPRN.dll

Dubrand

28-09-2005, 06:29 PM

The HTC Universal doesn’t support USB hosting capability for sure ... PR/HTC
He never said, it's impossible. He wrote, it's not inside (at factory rollout. This is what we mentioned.
We dont know, what's missing: hardware or software?
The games must go on ...

@cr2: can you send the different DLLs?

Greetings. Gerd Dubrand

cr2

28-09-2005, 06:43 PM

can you send the different DLLs?

No, but you can search for them in the ROM update.

nabil2000

28-09-2005, 06:45 PM

Right someone (Akira's link above) is working on a usb hosting capability in software,
but I did not try his stuff because he warns it might damage hardware :(
- but i am not saying its impossible...
but here we have a gal from HTC who says they didnot include usb functionality, I assume its the hardware she is talking about, since they are the oem ...

btw cr2 how good is the asus A730W for a pocketpc using wm2003?
thanx

cr2

28-09-2005, 06:59 PM

Right someone (Akira's link above) is working on a usb hosting capability in software,
but I did not try his stuff because he warns it might damage hardware :(

If the OHCI port is not connected _in hardware_ to the USB socket, the software
would not help.

but here we have a gal from HTC who says they didnot include usb functionality, I assume its the hardware she is talking about, since they are the oem ...

Do you really think the PR gal knows
about the hardware ? 8)

btw cr2 how good is the asus A730W for a pocketpc using wm2003?
thanx

No idea. I've only looked at its ROM.

Bonzo

28-09-2005, 07:04 PM

Could this be done by a simple wire from plug to chip, or are we talking about circuitry between layers?

nabil2000

28-09-2005, 07:07 PM

Dude the gal works in taiwan headquarters and she is in the PR office, the least she could do is know about their own products, otherwise its very bad for their name/image. I worked in american express customer services in the past and we were trained on and off for several weeks to know about every single products specs they provide and how to deal with any queries, one of them if someone ask u a question for which u dont know the answer, grab a supervisor and get the right answer...
Nabil H out

cr2

28-09-2005, 09:44 PM

Could this be done by a simple wire from plug to chip, or are we talking about circuitry between layers?

From the PXA27x manual:

...
A USB host must supply 5.0 volts (per the USB specification); however, the PXA27x processor does not have 5.0-volt-tolerant pads. Therefore, system designers must provide an external device to interface the USBHPEN and USBHPWR pins to the power supply and over-current detection circuits.
...

cr2

28-09-2005, 09:50 PM

the least she could do is know about their own products

The shipped "product" does not support USB host, this is a true statement.

nabil2000

28-09-2005, 11:04 PM

cr2
So basically the asus guys dealt with the over-voltage to the cpu whereas htc didnt bother :(,
i wish at least if htc bothered to include two sd slots instead of one, because i install all my apps on sd card because of lack of space,
i could have used the spare sd slot to get an sdio usb hoster ;)

cr2

29-09-2005, 12:06 AM

i wish at least if htc bothered to include two sd slots instead of one

They have ASIC3 and PXA270 in Universal,
both have MMC/SDIO controllers, so it was also
only a question of wiring :)
BTW, the same applies to BlueAngel
(ASIC3+ATI3200). ATI3200 has the USB OTG
and SDIO. Hitachi used them in its G1000 phone.
As i have said HTC is the "power-saving" company :twisted:

nabil2000

29-09-2005, 01:20 AM

i guess they lose customers too ;)

cr2

15-10-2005, 02:34 PM

I am a bit speculating here, but IMHO we are
screwed. It is highly likely that the USB host
port is used for the communication with the
Qualcomm GSM/UMTS chipset :(

GadiShoshani

15-10-2005, 06:16 PM

So even the "USB-ON-THE-GO Bridge with 2 built-in USB OTG ports to connect Two USB" from

http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USBG-OTG1&cats=172&catid=172%2C177%2C140%2C161

wont work?
no chance of connecting an mp3 player / Mass sto. ?

in not a super tech - but if there is a mini usb - there MUST be a way of convertinhg mini usb 1.1 OTG to normal or whatever.

and then again... maybe not (??)
has any 1 yry tried with this above connector?

nabil2000

15-10-2005, 08:36 PM

Using a sdio connector means losing the sd port which i use for storage for apps and backup, so i wont bother spend money on an extra bit of hardware just to test if it works or not :)
again everytime this subject is mentioned, it makes me sad because this universal is over-hyped over-priced and under-performant!

cr2

15-10-2005, 08:54 PM

again everytime this subject is mentioned, it makes me sad because this universal is over-hyped over-priced and under-performant!

Its LCD is really good. I wish i had a
monitor with the same dpi :)
3.6*2.5=9" for 1600x1200,
that is 3200x2400 for 18" !!!
Everything else is just substandard.
And don't tell me about this 3G/UMTS thing: it IS really
"over-hyped over-priced and under-performant!".

cr2

15-10-2005, 08:57 PM

there MUST be a way of convertinhg mini usb 1.1 OTG to normal or whatever.

That is the question if the PXA270 OTG port
port is used for the communication with the
MSM6250 OTG port or not.

GadiShoshani

16-10-2005, 02:21 AM

Bonzo

16-10-2005, 04:22 PM

does it support that?
If i put a 2G SD how will i be able to use an ext. input ??
only B.T, Wifi & Irda (which is almost never used)...

BTW: any way of using IRDA as remote ?
if not - what are uses for it other than Phone 2 Phone connectivity?

10x

Ok, first off; what has this got to do with USB support?!

But I'll answer your questions..

Yes, it supports BTFTP.
IR can be used as remote control with limited range.
Other use for IR is Active Sync, File transfer PC-Phone, DialUp PC-Phone

If you put in a SD card, you will only have 3G GSM/2.5G GSM/Bluetooth/WLAN/IrDA/Active Sync over USB as means of data transfer.
You will occupy the SDIO slot, the rest is untouched!