The Damn Thing is TOO Fat and Ugly!

[CoolBeans]

Is it just me, or is the Wizard not as good looking as the Magician?

I wish they would give me integrated wireless, WM 5.0, a better bluetooth stack and more ram on the same device.

I really don't need the stupid keyboard. It seems to add quite a bit of thickness.

My .02 cents.

-CoolBeans

[sleepnow]

I totally agree. Its looks like a cheap and tacky attempt to make something look futuristic.

[audiblefrequency]

The Keyboard is really personal preference. I know I will get a ton of use out of that keyboard since I type about 30 emails a day on my phone and it is a logical step for HTC.

The wizard has not yet been branded by O2, Orange etc... these companies will add their own personal cosmetic flavour to the device. Have you seen the pictures of the CDMA version of the wizard? It is a very nice looking device(except for that ugly antenna sticking out)

[FOZZER]

Orange are going to call it the SPV M600 some info on www.coolsmartphone.com

[SaltyDawg]

I wouldn't even consider this device if it didn't have a keyboard. A keyboard is the absolute most important factor in any device I consider. Without a keyboard, I don't even look at it.

[CoolBeans]

I thought the spirit of the Jam/Magician was to have a fairly full featured device in a small form factor.

If you need a keyboard, perhaps you should be looking to the Universal.

I bought a Javo case... thought it was too big. I then got a silicon skin for it and still felt it was too thick. I have now resorted to keeping my Jam naked and it feels just right (all puns intended).

Another 4-5 mm from the Wizard and I might look like I'm happy to see everyone I come across with this thing in my pocket.

It might have been a good thing in my dating days, but I'm married now.

[SaltyDawg]

Beleive me, if there were rumors about Sprint carrying the Universal, I would be getting one for sure. I'm only considering the Apache because I know I can get one within the next couple months.

Well, I guess I would probably get an Apache for my wife either way. But I would definitely get the Universal for myself. But as it stands right now, it's going to be 2 Apaches, 1 for me and 1 for the wife.

There are no rumors of a CDMA Universal, so there are definitely no rumors of my carrier (Sprint) offering a CDMA Universal. I'm locked into a contract with Sprint, so I can't just leave them. And besides, here in the USA there are only 2 3G networks at the moment, Sprint and Verizon. And both are CDMA (EVDO) so it would have to be a CDMA device for me to get it.

I won't consider it without a keyboard, but I won't buy it unless I can have broadband Internet on it.

[bigblk150]

I seem to be in the minoriy here, but I don't find the Wizard all that bad in terms of its shape/size/design.

I think first and foremost we need to be focused on FUNCTION, not form. HTC could have made something that looks fantastic and not do anything.

When looking at the side-by-side comparisons of the thickness of the device against the Magician, the extra thickness was necessary to add the slide-out keyboard feature. This is a feature that, IMHO, is well worth the extra thickness. When holding a device in one's hand, thickness is the dimension that's least noticible. I'd rather a device that's a bit thicker than wider or longer.

Couple the slide-out keyboard with WM5, WiFi, more internal memory, and approx. the same width/height as the Magician, and I'm sold.

[ShALLaX]

While I agree it doesn't look "great", its far from ugly. Thickness? Please, it's still overall smaller than a Nokia 6600 and compared to the Magician the extra thickness is only half a centimeter... oh no!

I would have preferred that they went with a more professional look rather than this "styled" look. I'm glad to see that they keyboard is backlit - all the photos so far (except for the ones on the .nl site) haven't shown this.

I think I'll be getting the Wizard over the Apache simply because of the aerial. I'm not too fussed about the slower speed, but an external aerial would annoy me.

[BurningOrange]

I agree.

All I wanted was a thinner JAM with wifi. I don't need a keyboard with my pdaphone. If i did, i would be going for the Universal, the Treo, a Sidekick or some HP device... :roll:

The JAM's design is elegant and functional. The Wizard's design isn't elegant, even though it may be very functional. (the Galaxy looked like my perfect pdaphone, until I realised it wasn't one... ) :lol:

Here's hoping that HTC will bring out a true succcessor to the minimalist JAM.

[ShALLaX]

Come on, its got all these extra features and its only 0.5 cm thicker... thats this much: --

Oh my, how will we ever lug this extra size around! ;p

[Squuiid]

Guys, you're all missing the point!

The show stopper here is the processor: TI OMAP 850!

WTF :shock:
DEFINITE step down from Magician

Also v bad:
Mini-SD and 320x240

[ShALLaX]

As has already been discussed - its a dual core processor which should help somewhat AND since it has a low clock rate this will help save battery life.

This isnt meant to be an "uber" PDA, its meant to be a small phone that can do the tasks of a PDA. If you want something faster, then you're going to have to get the Universal which is also bigger and has a VGA screen.

Whats the problem with MiniSD other than having to buy a new card? I needed to get a new SD card anyway... so I guess this is another non-issue for me :D

[Squuiid]

"Unfortunately, it will be considerably slower. While the OMAP does combine seperate processors for phone and PDA functionality, at the end of the day it is just a 195MHz ARM processor (as found in PDAs from years ago) - it's not even Xscale. " Guess who wrote that?! :shock: Dumbass

VGA would have been nice, but I agree, small screen.

SD card capacity is better than Mini-SD, 4Gb vs 1Gb at the moment.
Most people will not want to ditch their exisiting SD cards either, from their Himalayas, Blue Angels, Alpines, Andes, Magicians!

[ShALLaX]

"Unfortunately, it will be considerably slower. While the OMAP does combine seperate processors for phone and PDA functionality, at the end of the day it is just a 195MHz ARM processor (as found in PDAs from years ago) - it's not even Xscale. " Guess who wrote that?! :shock: Dumbass

VGA would have been nice, but I agree, small screen.

SD card capacity is better than Mini-SD, 4Gb vs 1Gb at the moment.
Most people will not want to ditch their exisiting SD cards either, from their Himalayas, Blue Angels, Alpines, Andes, Magicians!

I fail to see why I am a "dumbass". It will be considerably slower than a 400MHz Xscale processor, but the fact that its dual core will help it out. I see no contradiction between those two statements.

As for the SD cards - theres always eBay to sell your old ones on ;)

Try learning some etiquette before posting on forums.

[sleepnow]

http://www.pocketpc-club.nl/contentimages/qtek9100_preview/2.jpg

Tell me that aint thicker...

This thing is thicker and uglier than all 4 of your mothers teeth! :lol:


Here's a picture of ugly right here, next to a much more elegant JAM.

http://www.pocketpc-club.nl/contentimages/qtek9100_preview/1.jpg

Haha, look at the buttons! This phone is for suckers.

[grumble]

Here's a picture of ugly right here, next to a much more elegant JAM.


Gotta admit it DOES look as if its scowling at me when put next to the magician :)

Cant really see why people are getting so personal in their insults and defences about this phone tho .... when it comes down to it the phone hasnt actually been in anybodys hands yet so until some brave soul actually goes out and gets one its all just conjecture

[efjay]

is anyone else here disappointed with the lack of choice at the moment? its either the Universal or Wizard and each one for me has serious drawbacks: universal is tri band with no high speed option for the US, wizard has miniSD ( i currently have over 1GB of data on mine.) The BA design has everything and just needs EDGE for US and 3G for Europe, improved camera, WM5.

[RAGOv]

This thread has become more like a voting place for the Wizzard.....With valuable infos though..... :wink:

Now CoolBeans....
I would advice that u edit ur post and add a Poll,this way everybody can say his opinion without the need to post....(althought above posts were really helpfull..).Still,post will always be welcomed.... :wink:
Oh,btw,I would vote for..."I love it"... :)

Greetings...

RAGO :lol:

[saldous]

is anyone else here disappointed with the lack of choice at the moment? its either the Universal or Wizard and each one for me has serious drawbacks: universal is tri band with no high speed option for the US, wizard has miniSD ( i currently have over 1GB of data on mine.) The BA design has everything and just needs EDGE for US and 3G for Europe, improved camera, WM5.

Well there are the HP IPAQ 6515 (and the future 6715 which has WiFi and WM 5.0). Plus the new Motorolla Q so there are others out there coming out soon.

[efjay]

is anyone else here disappointed with the lack of choice at the moment? its either the Universal or Wizard and each one for me has serious drawbacks: universal is tri band with no high speed option for the US, wizard has miniSD ( i currently have over 1GB of data on mine.) The BA design has everything and just needs EDGE for US and 3G for Europe, improved camera, WM5.

Well there are the HP IPAQ 6515 (and the future 6715 which has WiFi and WM 5.0). Plus the new Motorolla Q so there are others out there coming out soon.

I meant for WM5 devices and the HP 6515 has no wifi; if you use an SD wifi card you are stuck with miniSD for storage which as i have said is not enough (1GB max), the 6715 has no SD slot so the same applies. The Q is due too far off in the future and also runs the smartphone OS so is not an option. It also doesnt have wifi AND uses miniSD again. See my point? If they had upgraded the Blue Angel chassis with the latest tech that would be ideal for me.

[saldous]

How about the Mitac Mio A701? : http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4190.html

[jaythemagician]

Come on, its got all these extra features and its only 0.5 cm thicker... thats this much: --

Oh my, how will we ever lug this extra size around! ;p


Missing the point-0.5 of a cm is a million miles when your talking about something that is designed to be as small as possible.Half a centimetre is alot for something the size of the jam-crappy cpu on paper also not worth the risk until some benchmark tests come out.My jam fits perfectly in my pocket and i can't feel it,given another 0.5 of a cm i'm sure it would make a difference-especially for something i personally do not need

[jaythemagician]

Come on, its got all these extra features and its only 0.5 cm thicker... thats this much: --

Oh my, how will we ever lug this extra size around! ;p


Missing the point-0.5 of a cm is a million miles when your talking about something that is designed to be as small as possible.Half a centimetre is alot for something the size of the jam-crappy cpu on paper also not worth the risk until some benchmark tests come out.My jam fits perfectly in my pocket and i can't feel it,given another 0.5 of a cm i'm sure it would make a difference-especially for something i personally do not need

[ShALLaX]

I guess I'm just used to carrying around a Nokia 6600 which is slightly bigger than this.

I admit, the Jam does look a lot cleaner and more elegant but the button design had to change somewhat for Windows Mobile 5.0 (with its hot keys).

I guess its all down to how important a keyboard is for you. I personally think its a great idea since I'd like to take down notes in University on it (its pretty hard using just a stylus for that). The Universal would have been even better for this but its about £750 and massive in comparison - not something Id want to be carrying around in my pocket _all_ the time.

As for those photos - yes, that shows that its 0.5cm thicker... well done? ;p The guy who took that photo was either an evil genius or an idiot. See how hes got the devices pushed together so that it makes the Wizard rock over to the right slightly giving the illusion that its even higher?

[jaythemagician]

I guess I'm just used to carrying around a Nokia 6600 which is slightly bigger than this.

I admit, the Jam does look a lot cleaner and more elegant but the button design had to change somewhat for Windows Mobile 5.0 (with its hot keys).

I guess its all down to how important a keyboard is for you. I personally think its a great idea since I'd like to take down notes in University on it (its pretty hard using just a stylus for that). The Universal would have been even better for this but its about £750 and massive in comparison - not something Id want to be carrying around in my pocket _all_ the time.

As for those photos - yes, that shows that its 0.5cm thicker... well done? ;p The guy who took that photo was either an evil genius or an idiot. See how hes got the devices pushed together so that it makes the Wizard rock over to the right slightly giving the illusion that its even higher?

Have you used a windows based device before?Writing isn't that hard at all.I'm akso sure this keyboard will be too small to be massively usable for myself.Get a laptop for uni-more practical get a jam to use as your great ompact all rounder.

Oh and that rocked over stuff about the wizard-why you clutching at straws?It is the thickness of the screen bigger,the whole top part of it.Then end

[ShALLaX]

Have you used a windows based device before?

A Windows _mobile_ device? Of course I've used one before I've been around since the days of Windows CE 2000/ Handheld PCs... I currently have an HTC Roadster (HP iPaq hx4700) and no, its not anywhere near as fast as using a keyboard (one of the reasons I only just got rid of my Jornada 720 - even though it has a keyboard, it was showing its age). As for a laptop, yes when its absolutely necessary I lug one around with me but this would be nice for quick notes.[/quote]

[PHug]

http://www.pocketpc-club.nl/contentimages/qtek9100_preview/2.jpg

Tell me that aint thicker...

This thing is thicker and uglier than all 4 of your mothers teeth! :lol:


Here's a picture of ugly right here, next to a much more elegant JAM.

http://www.pocketpc-club.nl/contentimages/qtek9100_preview/1.jpg

Haha, look at the buttons! This phone is for suckers.

Haha, that hurt my feelings.
This Apache will be my first PDA/Phone.
I like the JAM also but as far as i've seen it doesn't come in CDMA.
I have Verizon so its either the i730, the blue angel or wait.
Verizon has real high speed data in my area and the GSM carriers have crappy service and low speed data with a fancy name "EDGE"
Maybe i am a sucker but this Apache is the best thing coming as far as i can see.

[Matterhorn]

Have you used a windows based device before?

A Windows _mobile_ device? Of course I've used one before I've been around since the days of Windows CE 2000/ Handheld PCs... I currently have an HTC Roadster (HP iPaq hx4700) and no, its not anywhere near as fast as using a keyboard (one of the reasons I only just got rid of my Jornada 720 - even though it has a keyboard, it was showing its age). As for a laptop, yes when its absolutely necessary I lug one around with me but this would be nice for quick notes.[/quote]

Well for quick notes you could always use the notepad in grahical mode...ain't nothin' faster than that but paper :D

[ShALLaX]

Meh, you get like 5cm^2 of space in graphical mode, you can fit about two words per line if you're in a rush ;p

[Ineedtoys]

As for those photos - yes, that shows that its 0.5cm thicker... well done? ;p The guy who took that photo was either an evil genius or an idiot. See how hes got the devices pushed together so that it makes the Wizard rock over to the right slightly giving the illusion that its even higher?
Actually, it's probably doing the leaning itself due to the camera surround on the back. But agree the photo's dont prove much - we've all accepted it's 5mm thicker.
But let's get this in perspective. It's still only 23mm, which is the same as the Treo650, it's direct competitor, and less than many dedicated phones. So it's hardly a brick, considering what it does!

[Ineedtoys]

I fail to see why I am a "dumbass". It will be considerably slower than a 400MHz Xscale processor, but the fact that its dual core will help it out. I see no contradiction between those two statements.

That does put me off actually. The 400MHz Jam only just holds its own for data lookups and app switching speed against the Treo 650. Knock that speed down and it's going to be a real slouch by comparison. When I want to turn on the phone to find a number, make quick call, or check my diary, I don't want to be looking at a spinning icon for 30 seconds (or even 5). Just like with desktop PCs, once you got used to how fast a UI responds, anything slower becomes _really_ annoying. Unless they've performed miracles, from this perspective the novelty of the Wizard will soon wear off.

[sion]

Well what a difference in I.T. life a couple of days makes, Two days ago I was panicking about having to upgrade to a HTC Wizard with all it's underlying, associated buíld/development problems, and now I am sat here with my own & what I feel is many other people's PDA Holy Grail in my hand.

In my hand I have a I-Mate Jam, but with a couple or three big differences:

One it has 128 Megs of Ram.
Two it has built in WiFi
Three it has a 2 GIG SD Card plugged in that works.

Now I might add that this is not my Jam, However the little known about UK based company that has produced it are quite willing to customise one for me if I can lay my hands on one in the next week or so.

They will also be offering it as a commercial service over the net as of November this year.

So my dear friends, fellow bookworms, frustrated burglers, affronted policemen or city gents with titly furled umbrella's, I am glad I have joined & listened to you all so many times but I am afraid I won't be joining you just yet in your wizardly new worlds now that I have found my own personal PDA Val-Hala. Long live the 128 Meg WiFi enabled Jam, who knows we may even be able to get WM2005 on it yet, that really would be something, & a right kick up the hind quarters for HTC.

Kind Regards Ash'e

[ShALLaX]

Would you stop posting the same reply in all the threads on this forum.

[Ineedtoys]

In my hand I have a I-Mate Jam, but with a couple or three big differences:

One it has 128 Megs of Ram.
Two it has built in WiFi
Three it has a 2 GIG SD Card plugged in that works.

128MB jam's have been available for some time, as have Sd WiFi cards. The built in WiFi sounds interesting. But is it cost effective, assuming that the Jam+upgrades will cost you as much as the Wizard, and you still won't have the keyboard, extra hardware buttons or non volatile storage? So you'll still be in a two-handed, tappity-tap stylus bound world, dreading the day you pick it up to say "sh*t, the battery's flat, where's all my data gone?"

[kta]

So you'll still be in a two-handed, tappity-tap stylus bound world, dreading the day you pick it up to say "sh*t, the battery's flat, where's all my data gone?"

Come on ... how many of you here lost ALL their data becuase the battery went flat? I mean unless you're using BT, SD Wifi, using the phone and listening to MP3s while watching divx at the same time ... a single battery charge during the night keeps everyone covered.

Don't get me wrong, permanent storage IS WAY BETTER ... but imho it's not a good enough reason to upgrade.

[mikeycollins13]

What did they charge for the wifi upgrade and 128 ram? Where are they located by any chance?

[bnycastro]

re: WIZARD being FAT, FAT devices need owners too.
re: WIZARD being UGLY, Beauty is relative.
--
For me WM5.0, WiFi (built-in), Persistent storage, keyboard and now BT2.0 seem to be enough reason to upgrade.

[mattstroud]

I think the Wizard looks freaking amazing!! i mean check out the specs,

WM5 (i really really want a WM5 device)
Built in wifi (huge plus)
Bluetooth 2.0
Non volatile memory

When i was getting my Jam i looked at all the devices and i never wanted one with a keyboard, mainly because they were enormous! but now after owning my jam and knowing how much i use it and what i use it for, i think a keyboard will be a very welcomed addition. and now we see a device that is still the same size as the jam (apart from thickness) and it has a keyboard too! ROCK ON i want it. So it's a little bit thicker than the jam, so what it still rocks.

You can't have all this technology and expect the phone to be the size of a RAZR V3, wake up!!!!!

[Mvmajorem]

If the camera is better than the JAM... Count me in...

[Koksie]

The guys at PocketPC Italia said the cam is way better than the Magician's ( duh, every cam is better than that piece of c..p) and that indoors the quality can be interpolated to 2 MP and still looks good. However, Cam quality is of course also dependent on taste and I first have to see it to believe it.

[ShALLaX]

A 1.3MP camera isn't going to be great, but its going to be a whole lot better than what I'm used to on mobile devices (0.3MP!). It should be sufficient for taking reference photos when you have no other camera available, which I guess is the point of it... its not meant to replace a good quality digital camera.

[Midi_Amp]

All I need from the Wizard is a decent processing power... And that's about it. Whether it's thick (obviously, people never seen Audiovox Thera) or fat and ugly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Oh yeah, I've tried a Himalaya booted with a WM 5.0... Holy smoke... I can almost use one hand to operate the device. Definitely, the addition of two soft buttons will help a lot, and with the Wizard new soft buttons... Loving it...

Motorola Q... Ummm... It's kind of scary for me. I believe the default screen view is landscape mode, and that gives only 240 pixel of height to display data (like iPAQ Hw6500), which kind of... Just right, although I would ask for more.

[far182]

Am I the only one who never thought the JAM was good looking? I didn't think it was ugly, but its not good looking in my book.

On the contrast I think the wizard looks GREAT.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

:)

[ShALLaX]

Hrm, I do quite like the look of the Magician - its clean and functional... and smooth, no extra crap. The Wizard doesnt look great, imo... they've tried to make it look flashy and futuristic.

[Midi_Amp]

Am I the only one who never thought the JAM was good looking? I didn't think it was ugly, but its not good looking in my book.

I'm with you actually. It is clean yes, but too clean for my taste, but like you said, different strokes for different folks.

[shackk]

I guess I don't agree, I didn't own a Jam but I did own a pda2k and I see the Wizard as a huge upgrade from that. There is a 8 min video floatin around that shows that the device is far from slow, persistant storage.....well its about time....and a keyboard in a device that while only in thickness is smaller than a blackberry and noticeably smaller than the "pocketable" sidekick. Ive preordered and I expect to be completely satisfied.

[bnycastro]

for a simpler looking device there is the XDA Atom (haven't seen any specs yet just the outside).
--
personally I like the Wizard (aka mini Pro)

http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/handhelds/0,39001703,39095541p,00.htm

[skagen]

You can't have all this technology and expect the phone to be the size of a RAZR V3, wake up!!!!!
The Jam was more or less the limit of reasonable pocketabliity. With this thing you are now in the territory or "permanent hard-on" ie looking like a geek and being not quite comfortable with the ease of keeping it.

With that in mind, yes the half centimeter matters mucho. This is supposed to be the uber-portable device. Adding bulk only detracts from its mission.

With that in mind, they should have left out the slider - or had two models. If they did that, I have no doubt the slider would be the less popular one.

[far182]

You can't have all this technology and expect the phone to be the size of a RAZR V3, wake up!!!!!
The Jam was more or less the limit of reasonable pocketabliity. With this thing you are now in the territory or "permanent hard-on" ie looking like a geek and being not quite comfortable with the ease of keeping it.

With that in mind, yes the half centimeter matters mucho. This is supposed to be the uber-portable device. Adding bulk only detracts from its mission.

With that in mind, they should have left out the slider - or had two models. If they did that, I have no doubt the slider would be the less popular one.

That is what SmartPhones are for. Sounds like you are looking at the wrong platform.

[skagen]

[

That is what SmartPhones are for. Sounds like you are looking at the wrong platform.

In case you missed it - I own a Jam. What are you talking about?

Smartphones are limited capability. In contast, The Jam is a benchmark of usabiliy with touchscreen and yet pocketable size. A new model should be an evolution forward, not backward to gigantic bricks that we came from.

Sounds to me more like you need a 3.5" model. People who own the Jam are looking for progress not regeression. I'd much rather the get rid of the crapola camera and give us a tight package in the correct size.

[jaythemagician]

ShaLLaX - after my rant i got a k-jam anyway as i dropped my jam and it died. It is a great device! the kb is good for browsing the web as in the new ie you can have full screen (without using spb) and together with the softkeys (another good idea) you can surf the net loads better. Built in vc too and just as quick as the jam. I appoligise for my rant! :oops:

[ShALLaX]

Woohoo! Glad you're happy! :)

[far182]

[

That is what SmartPhones are for. Sounds like you are looking at the wrong platform.

In case you missed it - I own a Jam. What are you talking about?

Smartphones are limited capability. In contast, The Jam is a benchmark of usabiliy with touchscreen and yet pocketable size. A new model should be an evolution forward, not backward to gigantic bricks that we came from.

Sounds to me more like you need a 3.5" model. People who own the Jam are looking for progress not regeression. I'd much rather the get rid of the crapola camera and give us a tight package in the correct size.

You need to chill out. I meant my comment to not offend, but as a reccomendation.

The number one asked-for feature for the next JAM was a keyboard. While you think 6mm make a world of difference and makes the wizard garbage, many people don't. It seems HTC knows what you want and is coming out with the Athena anyway, so why bitch about the K-Jam?

[skagen]

The number one asked-for feature for the next JAM was a keyboard.

I'd suspect that most people were thinking "Treo" when they said that, not "thicker and bigger". Its the most elegant and logical resolution to the data entry problem. As I said, these devices are small and the tipping point of true pocketability is indeed relevant.

Of course HTC makes the Treo and probabaly can't offer that form factor to anyone other than Palm. In other words as a result of the conflict of interests that develop when you have a virtual monopoly in OEM'ing these devices.

As for these other devices - they are not here. You might have a case if they had released them and given people a choice. But for all we know these other ones may not turn up at all or in very limited availability. So all we can say for sure at this time is that the only available successor to the jam is a backward regression in terms of size.

[ShALLaX]

Mmmm "a backwards regression"... so its progression? Yay for double negatives ;p

[Kensai]

I don't understand why JAM users bash the the successor... If you're so happy with your PPC-phones stick with them but please stay at your forum section. :oops:

Idle negative commenting of the likes: "I never asked for a keyboard" or "this thing is a whopping 6mm thicker" is not interesting for no one since these things are of personal preference.

Personally, I'm going back from a 3G smartphone to GSM because of the Wizard: the keyboard, the Wi-fi, and the camera are all necessary for the use I'm intending to do so I find all the above comments out of place.

just my two €urocents... :?

[sleepnow]

Ok, well then how about the fact the its just plain ugly? It so ugly it hurts its own feelings.

I'd be ashamed to own a phone like that! "oooh, but it has a keyboard" guess what? Still ugly. I'm just relieved of the news about Atom - this appears to be a truly suitable replacement.

[jaythemagician]

Just cos you ca't afford it;). I wasn't to keen on the k-jam at first but when it came i was hooked! The atom isn't suitable- it's even more a repackaged jam than the k-jam! Who cares anyway,the whole thing with these devices is that one thing does't suit all, why get all wound up? weird :roll:

[far182]

I think the wizard is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better looking than the Jam. The Jam looks like a Ipod and I think those things are puke ugly.

Personal preference.

[wardy]

:lol: :lol: The Ipod Nano looks cool . The size it should have been in the first place .. I guess apple thought if they made it PDA size put a calendar and contacts database in it then it would replace our PDA's :!:

[jamijam]

got my wiz after using a jam for 6 months and I can see I am very pleasantly surprised. Quick notes:

Size/Weight: Somehow it doesn't really feel that different to the Jam in your pocket or your hand. It's the same weight I think, and the extra thickness just makes it look more proporational. I know this sounds weird, but size is really not a concern anymore for me, now that I've held it.

Attractiveness: Looks as good as the jam placed next to it. Agan from the pictures I didn't think this was the case, but I'm happy.

Stylus: prefer the jam's, this one sucks, both placement and feel.

Keyboard: nothing to say here, it's a keyboard, makes SMSing faster, sturdy construction.

Screen: as good as, if not better than Jam.

Battery Life: don't know yet, but I noticed it's 50mAH bigger battery.

Wi-fi: works as advertised.

WM5: Awesome. This is finally a phone you can use 99% of the time without a stylus. I knew nothing about WM5 and this is a huge surprise to me.

I've only used it for 6 hours, I'll write more later, but basically if I had to choose between the two today, I would go for the Wizard.

Try one out in a store before making up your mind about size and attractiveness!

[jamijam]

BTW, I noted some people making comments about the CPU.

It feels pretty much the same speed as the jam doing the usual stuff, maybe 10% slower, but it's hard to tell if it's WM5 or the CPU. All in all, it's not really noticeable difference.

[jamijam]

note, voice calls sound better as well. No more wondering why you're so-called 'phone' doesn't have decent phone quality ;)

[skagen]

note, voice calls sound better as well. No more wondering why you're so-called 'phone' doesn't have decent phone quality ;)

Great to hear that - its long overdue in these things.

[Ineedtoys]

[

That is what SmartPhones are for. Sounds like you are looking at the wrong platform.

In case you missed it - I own a Jam. What are you talking about?

Smartphones are limited capability. In contast, The Jam is a benchmark of usabiliy with touchscreen and yet pocketable size. A new model should be an evolution forward, not backward to gigantic bricks that we came from.

Sounds to me more like you need a 3.5" model. People who own the Jam are looking for progress not regeression. I'd much rather the get rid of the crapola camera and give us a tight package in the correct size.

You need to chill out. I meant my comment to not offend, but as a reccomendation.

The number one asked-for feature for the next JAM was a keyboard. While you think 6mm make a world of difference and makes the wizard garbage, many people don't. It seems HTC knows what you want and is coming out with the Athena anyway, so why bitch about the K-Jam?
It was clear when Skagen first got his Jam that he'd bought the wrong device for his needs (STF). He's done nothing but bitch about it since. And as you say, a slimmer, fitter, Jam is on the way for those who don't need a keyboard, so I can't see what he is complaining about. But then he complained even more when we gave him all the solutions to his Jam problems. I guess that's just the way he is...

[skagen]

Its clear that you're an apologist. Other than that, you're not of much use.

Many of the things I pointed out were addressed in newer models eg lack of proper thought about one handed use. Thus newer deviced have the soft buttons and the OS is now been given some more though to that, though not completely.

As for the sound quality, people are STILL complaing on this board about the Magician sound quality. Mean while the Wizard I have heard that some are now saying it is louder than expected. Again, you were the apologist and I was the one calling a spade a spade.

So obviosuly I know what I was talking about - because many of the things I said were prioritized as fixes in subsequent models. So if I say going up in size is not a positive, at least I have credibity as someone thinking properly about these things. You are an excuse maker. Period.If it was up to people like you, we'd all STILL be using 1 lb bricks with 10 digit display and smiling about it.

[Ineedtoys]

"Its clear that you're an apologist. Other than that, you're not of much use."
Well, thank you.

"Many of the things I pointed out were addressed in newer models eg lack of proper thought about one handed use. Thus newer deviced have the soft buttons and the OS is now been given some more though to that, though not completely."

Thank you again for pointing this out. Obviously Microsoft weren't aware of WM 2003/SE shortcomings and have been sat on their hands doing nothing for the last two years. Thank goodness they read your postings.

"As for the sound quality, people are STILL complaining on this board about the Magician sound quality."

As do Nokia/Sony/Siemens/Motorola/Neonode users on any board you care to pick. There are duff phones in every range. What's your point?
The first Jam I got was distorted. I got it changed. No big deal. The quality since has been perfectly acceptable - much better than my Treo. Surely you don't expect HTC to fit new speakers to all Magicians, just because they've come up with an improved design? My 2004 car has a reputation for being slightly underpowered for it's weight. Guess what, the 2005 model has an completely new engine. Does that stop 2004 model owners complaining when they run out of torque? Do they expect the manufacturer to fit the new engine to their old cars? Of course not.

"Mean while the Wizard I have heard that some are now saying it is louder than expected."
No pleasing some folk. I suppose you'll complain about that too.

"Again, you were the apologist and I was the one calling a spade a spade."
Ah, yes. a spade=a spade, or the Skagen version of "same difference". Like a "PocketPC Phone Edition" PDA should work just the same as a phone, a Standby button the same as a Power button, Flash memory the same as DRAM. That Contacts details aren't accessible from the Phone screen, and that (free) third party enhancements to the OS are invalid because they weren't supplied (and therefore unchangeable) in ROM. Oh and it must have a bigger screen in a smaller case with a faster processor with longer battery life.
Where "I didn't know how stupid the WM 2003 SE interface was until I actually had one for a while. If its supposed to be a PHONE, you'd expect the OS to be prperly designed for that. and "This OS was designed by a bunch of bozos" becomes "The Jam is a benchmark of usabiliy with touchscreen and yet pocketable size. " :?

Welcome to Skagen World.

"So obviosuly I know what I was talking about - because many of the things I said were prioritized as fixes in subsequent models. So if I say going up in size is not a positive, at least I have credibity as someone thinking properly about these things. You are an excuse maker. Period.If it was up to people like you, we'd all STILL be using 1lb bricks with 10 digit display and smiling about it"
Thank goodness you got a Jam for Christmas. Otherwise Palm and Microsoft would never have begun their WM Treo collaboration over two years ago. WM2003 would have never become WM[200]5. And HTC's R&D and QA teams would have been stuck for ideas until you got on their case. How long do you thing it takes to finance, develop, test and release a new OS and hardware spec to market? How much longer for the network carriers to test, certificate, implement support infrastructure and roll out?

You've been told there is a new, slimmer, faster Jam on its way for those who don't want a keyboard. Many other variations will follow. In what kind of warped world do you live in where no one is allowed a choice in the product and functions (and size) they want, product improvement only comes about asa result of your say-so (and only to your spec), and then the suppliers have to deliver this blemish-free - and yesterday?

Or does So if I say going up in size is not a positive, at least I have credibity as someone thinking properly about these things reveal a deeper insecurity? :twisted:

[skagen]

Thank you again for pointing this out. Obviously Microsoft weren't aware of WM 2003/SE shortcomings and have been sat on their hands doing nothing for the last two years.

Well why did they put that crap out at $500 a pop in the first place. That is people's hard earned money.

And why were you excusing things that they any moron with a brain could see were bad design. Let alone the bigegst software company in the world.

Let alone excusing a phone with bad audio quality. What next, excuses for a camera that takes bad pictures?

A 10 page dissertation to nowhere wont get you out if it. Sorry, Mr. A-P-O-L-O-G-I-S-T.

[simon_darley]

People, settle down a bit, this forum is supposed to be for open contribution of knowledge about the device, not to sling mud at each other. I thought it funny to read two people going at it, but when I got to the end, I was no more informed than when I started, so I can only assert that there was no contribution of knowledge.
I have always found this site a friendly helpful site, sure we have devices with bugs, sure they dont always perform exactly as expected, but thats what we asked for, indirectly.
If we want to talk analogy, there are two basic style motor bikes, the road bike and the dirt bike. Each specialises and performs to its own level of excellence within their chosen fields, take one and put into the other environment, neither will perform as well as the other. SO... what did we do, we invented the road and trail bike, and what did we get, something that was capable in either field, but overall quite bad at it.
Thats what these devices are. If you want something fast with lots of memory, you get a computer or server, if you want something that can make a phone call, you get a mobile phone, if you want something to take nice pictures you get a 5mp camera, or an original film based camera, if you want to listen to music, you get a stereo, and so it goes on.
What you have now is a compromise machine, they are capable in every field, but overall quite bad at it.

I had the XDAII and was quite happy with it, but wanted a keyboard and wanted wifi so I didnt need a backpack or a protruding SD card. WM2005 is nice cause you keep up with technology and see what is going on, but it doesnt provide all that much functionality in itself.

So people, contribute your knowledge, but accept the fact that the devices are compromise devices, not specialist devices, you can do a bit of everything, but nothing to any professional perfect level, that would require specialist devices.

Think of them as the Road and Trail motor bike, they are not a road bike and not a dirt bike, we got a bit of everything, but couldnt beat either in a race or performance in their specialised fields they were produced for.

Be happy, be helpful, learn from experience, build a bridge and get over it, the otherside is harmonious and at the end of the bridge you will find that the device still works and whats more, you can make a telephone call, take pictures, listen to music, handle email, sms, mms, record voices, open word, excel, and do all the other things you bought it for, just not as well, as efficiently, or as effectively, but you compromised along the way for a multitasking machine.

[Ineedtoys]

Thank you again for pointing this out. Obviously Microsoft weren't aware of WM 2003/SE shortcomings and have been sat on their hands doing nothing for the last two years.

Well why did they put that crap out at $500 a pop in the first place. That is people's hard earned money.

And why were you excusing things that they any moron with a brain could see were bad design. Let alone the bigegst software company in the world.

Let alone excusing a phone with bad audio quality. What next, excuses for a camera that takes bad pictures?

A 10 page dissertation to nowhere wont get you out if it. Sorry, Mr. A-P-O-L-O-G-I-S-T.
Yet again, you totally ignore the facts, and contradict yourself.
1. The Jam was the best device available using the latest OS available from MS, and the best hardware HTC could provide, at a mid price point for a PPC Phone. You yourself called it a benchmark!
2. The audio quality is no worse than many other phones on the market (and better than it's main competitor, the Treo 650).

You are obviously too thick to appreciate that product development and testing takes a LOT of time and expense, and that all devices such as the Jam (which was a quantum leap in PPC Phone size reduction) take at least two years to come to market - plus another 6 months to gain network operator certification. You just shout and never listen. Maybe you should try stroll down to your local car dealer and rant at them because they won't sell you a car that is completely defect free and runs on water. Then get your head out of the clouds and back into the real world, where the majority of people are pleased with what they are getting for their money - otherwise they wouldn't buy them, would they?

[Ineedtoys]

So people, contribute your knowledge, but accept the fact that the devices are compromise devices, not specialist devices, you can do a bit of everything, but nothing to any professional perfect level, that would require specialist devices.

Think of them as the Road and Trail motor bike, they are not a road bike and not a dirt bike, we got a bit of everything, but couldnt beat either in a race or performance in their specialised fields they were produced for.

Be happy, be helpful, learn from experience, build a bridge and get over it, the otherside is harmonious and at the end of the bridge you will find that the device still works and whats more, you can make a telephone call, take pictures, listen to music, handle email, sms, mms, record voices, open word, excel, and do all the other things you bought it for, just not as well, as efficiently, or as effectively, but you compromised along the way for a multitasking machine.

Simon, wise words indeed. Unfortunately, skagen is incapable of understanding why a convergence device cannot perform as well as a dedicated phone, or the concept of "horses for courses". As for being helpful, I and several others have given him many solutions and workarounds to address the usability shortcomings he bitterly complains about (which one of the beauties an open platform such as WM and it's 3rd party support gives you). Instead of exploring this advice to improve his enjoyment of the Jam, he just sticks his fingers in his ears and rants about how it won't work the way he demands it should. You can lead a horse to water...

[skagen]

You are obviously too thick to appreciate that product development and testing takes a LOT of time and expense, and that all devices such as the Jam (which was a quantum leap in PPC Phone size reduction) take at least two years to come to market - plus another 6 months to gain network operator certification. You just shout and never listen. Maybe you should try stroll down to your local car dealer and rant at them because they won't sell you a car that is completely defect free and runs on water. Then get your head out of the clouds and back into the real world, where the majority of people are pleased with what they are getting for their money - otherwise they wouldn't buy them, would they?

You are obviously too thick to figure out that if they took 2 years and 6 months, then they shouldn't come to market with retated mistakes that my little sister could have figured out without a fancy job title of "product develpment".

Also very telling that you are quick to point of how much the company spent - but quick to disregard what the customer has paid. Yeah, we know who you work for!

The customer does not deserve to have to pay all that money for obvious design or quality flaws. Nor should they have to come to XDA and trawl for "workarounds" which should not have been required in the first place!

[Ineedtoys]

The "obvious" flaws you see are not insurmountable, so you're making an issue where most sensible people have just got on with it and taken the shortcomings on balance with the benefits of such a flexible device. Flexibity which gives them the choice to tailor the device to how they (not you) want it to work.

As much as you decry it, product development is a fact of life, one of evolution and gradual convergence.

That's why the Pocket PCs became PCs with GSM added (Pocket PC Phone Edition) - for devices where prime function was initially as a data-centric PDA.

For people who wanted a device that behaved more like a phone, with added PDA functionality , we got Windows Mobile Smartphone Edition (with all the buttons and shortcuts and audio quality you apparently crave).

Then we got Windows Mobile 5, unifying both platforms and bringing over the best parts of the phone UI from Smartphone (i.e. the context sensitive menus and soft keys).

But MS knew what all the users knew - that the Treo had the class leading UI and form factor by far. Conversely Palm recognised that many of their users would prefer to have Windows comapatbility (particularly in the corporate environment). So they set up a project to combine the best bits of the Treo, with the best bits of WM, then added extra functions on top, with the aim of making the 700w the next best in breed. As you will know from the recent press releases, that has taken two years of collobaration and hard work.

Now we've got the Wizard, which addresses the many requests for an inbuilt keyboard and better speakerphone, and the imporved phone integration and one handed usablity of WM5.

Some people don't want the extra girth that comes with a keyboard (hence this thread), so we'll soon have a leaner, faster Jam to cater for that segment.

No matter what you say, all these steps are positive, and give the consumer a better product and a range that suits different tastes and needs (believe it or not, not everyone thinks like you).

But that all costs time and resource, which doesn't come cheap. If you want to be an early adopter of these enhancements, you've got to pay the price to fund the R&D. Just like new safety and gadget innovations are only available first on top of the range cars.

Only an idiot would expect this all yesterday and for free. Any person with the most tenuos link with reality knows how ludicrous that is.

Finally, if the Jam and WM2003SE/PE suck so much, why haven't you off-loaded it on eBay and got something else more suited to your taste? If your little sister could see how obviously bad it was, why didn't she tell you to send it back for a full refund?

Perhaps your ill-researched buy in February locked you into a 12/18 month contract, and that's why we're still having to suffer all these sour grapes. What other reason could there be for you to put up with such daily torment?

[ShALLaX]

Well put.

[skagen]

The "obvious" flaws you see are not insurmountable, so you're making an issue where most sensible people have just got on with it and taken the shortcomings on balance with the benefits of such a flexible device. Flexibity which gives them the choice to tailor the device to how they (not you) want it to work.

Another 50 page apologist dissertation by the Comical Ali of the pDA world. There is zero excuse for selling a phone with such poor audio performance. Zero.

As for the "Sensible people" - sensible people would say "hey the customer is paying $6,7,800 for this item. We better make it work". Not having them trawl the internet to find fixes.

Save the 50 page garbage for your personal wank sessions. I'm not interested at all.

[ShALLaX]

For god sakes, no one is asking you to buy this. You don't like it, we get it. Don't buy it. But dont tell other people it's not suited to their needs.

[wardy]

Amen to that , it's all about personal choices at the end of the day .

[skagen]

For god sakes, no one is asking you to buy this. You don't like it, we get it. Don't buy it. But dont tell other people it's not suited to their needs.

I don't say anyone had to buy it or not.

I do object to this guy consistently claiming PPC flaws and omissions to be "features" eg the "close" button doesn't close programs and he calls it a feature. They make obvious omissions in the OS and he talks about "workarounds".

He works for one of these companies and comes on the inetrnet boards all the time to spread propaganda. Its so obvious. He's been doing it for ages.

[ShALLaX]

Well, the whole close button issue is very long and drawn out. If Microsoft truely wanted it to be a close button they would have done it long ago - hell, it would take (at most) a single line of code to change its functionality. This has to lead me to believe that Microsoft only wanted it to minimise the application intentionally (most probably to save on the time overhead of starting up the programme again). What doesnt quite make sense is why MS couldnt have implemented a tap'n'hold system whereby holding the X minimises but tapping closes (or vice-versa)... maybe Microsoft doesnt give enough credit to the intellect of their users and feel this would be confusing or cumbersome.

At any rate, people have been arguing about this since the Pocket PC edition of Windows CE first came out (which is what, 5-6 years ago now?) and Microsoft haven't made any move to change it. What does that tell you? It may tell you that Microsoft doesn't care or that Microsoft prefers it as it currently is. Either way you have three choices, "Rant and rave", "Get used to it" or "Get lost". After 5-6 years of the first of the three choices being used to no avail isn't it time to move on?

I do happen to agree with you on this issue... the first piece of software I usually install is WisBar which allows you to overcome this. I have given up waiting for MS to change it themselves.

[far182]

The "obvious" flaws you see are not insurmountable, so you're making an issue where most sensible people have just got on with it and taken the shortcomings on balance with the benefits of such a flexible device. Flexibity which gives them the choice to tailor the device to how they (not you) want it to work.

Another 50 page apologist dissertation by the Comical Ali of the pDA world. There is zero excuse for selling a phone with such poor audio performance. Zero.

As for the "Sensible people" - sensible people would say "hey the customer is paying $6,7,800 for this item. We better make it work". Not having them trawl the internet to find fixes.

Save the 50 page garbage for your personal wank sessions. I'm not interested at all.

Did you get beat up as a kid? You are making a phone, and this forum, somewhat of a political battle. Get over it, its just a phone.

The best message you can send is by using your money. Buy or don't buy a product, the manufacture will get the message.

FYI. The audio quality of this phone is fantastic. The fact that you bring this up tells me you have never used the Kjam.

[skagen]

The guy is referring to previous generations of PPC models - which did have a lot of audio quality - and other - complaints. I even commented here that HTC have responded to the previous audio failings in this model. Read the thread before you start writing.

[gogol]

get lost if you dont want to buy it !

[Ineedtoys]

I don't say anyone had to buy it or not.

You can't read. That's not what you were asked. You do however try to portray it as something which is totally unusable as a phone or PDA, hoping for other to join you in your little fantasy world. Tell me again, why are you still using it?

I do object to this guy consistently claiming PPC flaws and omissions to be "features" eg the "close" button doesn't close programs and he calls it a feature. They make obvious omissions in the OS and he talks about "workarounds".

Tell me where I called the lack of close button a feature. But now you mention it - it is deliberate. WM is a fully multitasking windowed environment - except that you can only fit one window on the screen at once. How do you expect to be able to switch between active windows, if the background application just stops executing and unloads from memory? You'd soon be complaining then. And. as ShALLaX says, it also gives a speed advantage - something that was critical when sluggish 120MHz-200Mhz PPCs were head -to-head in the shop with the more responsive (but single tasking) 33/66MHz Palms.

True, it would have been better to have the option to fully close - but as there are dozens of free products which not only fill that gap, but often also give extra functionality MS would never have thought of, what's the big deal? It works, and it's cost you nothing!


He works for one of these companies and comes on the internet boards all the time to spread propaganda. Its so obvious. He's been doing it for ages.

Now he's got paranoia. Irrespective of who pays my salary, I am keen to find out ways to get the best from my gadgets, and so maximum benefit and enjoyment from owning and using them. That's why I'm here, to pick up knowledge and occasionaly share some too.

All the problems you have raised can be easily fixed, and I and others have spent hours trying to show you how. What I do object to is that 6 months later your'e still sat here screaming "it won't work, I don't like it, M$ suck' over and over again like a spoilt 3 year old, not listening to a word anyone else says, or accepting that anyone can have a different view point or user experience to yours.

It's not our fault you didn't research or understand what you (or mummy) bought, or that you have not used the time since to enjoy what the device CAN do, like everyone else here, instead of what it can't. Now that IS a waste of time and money. The sooner you get over it, get rid of the Jam and go and back to Nokia Jr. CLub (which, judging from the language in your previous posts, is where you'll be most at home), the better.

[skagen]

I don't say anyone had to buy it or not.

You can't read. That's not what you were asked. You do however try to portray it as something which is totally unusable as a phone or PDA, hoping for other to join you in your little fantasy world.

Hey, idiot, I have said before that it is a good PDA and average phone. Below average if you get one of th bad ones (of which there are many out there). So yeah its not up to par as a phone. Read before you post. Or stick to kindergarten level stuff.


Tell me where I called the lack of close button a feature. But now you mention it - it is deliberate. WM is a fully multitasking windowed environment - except that you can only fit one window on the screen at once. How do you expect to be able to switch between active windows, if the background application just stops executing and unloads from memory?.....
True, it would have been better to have the option to fully close - but as there are dozens of free products which not only fill that gap, but often also give extra functionality MS would never have thought of, what's the big deal? It works, and it's cost you nothing!.

Exactly my point. A common sense thing is missing in the OS. Why come here and boast about 2 years and $ X Million spent on development when my 12 yr old sister could have told you what makes sense - and they didn't figure it out?

In fact the "close" option is more important on these devices which are chronically lacking in memory capacity. A PC has 3 tiny buttons on the top left (minimize, window size,close - because you need the 3 options. In the mobile device the limited memory capcity dictates that at the very least you need the (close and minimize as two options)

Dont come here talking nonsense about this a supposedly windows-like OS when it doesn't even properly replicate common sense good things about windows in places where they would be appropriate. Can you imaging if Windows didn't have a close button and people were told to go out and buy software or get freeware - for a basic OS function?

And I'm a person who pays good money for these things. My own money. They are not corporate free toys of the week - which is how YOU get them. Your screen name say sit all. So STFU, I could care less what you think. Your entire agenda is just to excuse and apologize.

You've more or less admitted who you are - the Comical Ali of this business. Shut up and go home. If you need to talk, feel free to go and tell your employers to have more respect for the money that people pay for these products and put out things that work correctly the FIRST time, not after 3 replacements, 2 ROM "Udpates" and 100hrs spent on XDA Developers forums.

[ShALLaX]

Hey, idiot, I have said before that it is a good PDA and average phone. Below average if you get one of th bad ones (of which there are many out there). So yeah its not up to par as a phone. Read before you post. Or stick to kindergarten level stuff.


"Its a good PDA, an average phone, a below average phone, not up to par as a phone". Mmmm decisive. What are these "bad ones"? I've not had any reports of certain Wizards out performing others...

[Ineedtoys]

Hey, idiot, I have said before that it is a good PDA and average phone. Below average if you get one of th bad ones (of which there are many out there). So yeah its not up to par as a phone.

So a PDA that has "obvious omissions in the OS", when "they put that crap out at $500 a pop" and "any moron with a brain could see were bad design" is now "good"?

And a "a phone with such poor audio performance", "a phone with bad audio quality", where "the audio quality of this phone is horrible and unacceptable" and "the quality control on this model is crap" is now "average"?

What an excellent reviewer you would make .


In the mobile device the limited memory capcity dictates that at the very least you need the (close and minimize as two options)

Forget what your prejudices and what you _think_ it must have for a moment, and look at hard facts. What difference does it _really_ make to the speed of a 400MHz PPC when a few frequently used applications are in the background?
I'll tell you - hardly any. In fact the user experience is improved because of the faster switching between apps. Don't forget, most PDA users never use anything but the built-in apps, so for the majority the "minimize only" concept does actually work.

It's only when you start loading the machine up with extra apps that memory becomes short, and if you're capable of doing that, you're capable of adding a free enhanced application handler too.

I never said it was ideal - but as the cure is so simple (and free), I just can't see what the big deal is. If you get so hung up on something so simple, how on earth do you cope with life's more complex problems?

They are not corporate free toys of the week - which is how YOU get them. Your screen name say sit all. So STFU, I could care less what you think. Your entire agenda is just to excuse and apologize.

You've more or less admitted who you are - the Comical Ali of this business. Shut up and go home. If you need to talk, feel free to go and tell your employers to have more respect for the money that people pay for these products and put out things that work correctly the FIRST time, not after 3 replacements, 2 ROM "Udpates" and 100hrs spent on XDA Developers forums.
See, there you go in your little fantasy world again. You have _no_ idea what I do (not that it's any of your business), but you carry on ranting and making it all up, convincing yourself that it's all a huge conspiracy. Talk about being deluded. (Mind you, this is the poor soul who thought every one who disagreed with him in a previous thread was the same person).

But wait a minute...

A PC has 3 tiny buttons on the top left (minimize, window size,close

So not only do you not know what those buttons are called, you have them on the opposite side to everyone else. Now I understand. There's just no point trying to reason with someone who lives on the wrong side of the Looking Glass :lol:

So, enough of this nonsense. How are people getting along with the Wizard now they've got used to it? Is it still too fat and ugly?

[Mashie]

How are people getting along with the Wizard now they've got used to it? Is it still too fat and ugly?

I am very happy with my Wizard. For what I do (road warrior) It is the perfect combination of featurs in a very good package. Having WiFi, Edge and a nice comfortable thumb keyboard for those longer e-mails makes it a very good device in my book. Sometimes I wish the processor could be a little snappier but after removing the AV and assigning buttons, I find I can get the majority of what I need to do without having to pull out the stylus.

After a week, I still give it a solid grade of A :)

[Ineedtoys]

Sometimes I wish the processor could be a little snappier but after removing the AV and assigning buttons, I find I can get the majority of what I need to do without having to pull out the stylus.

After a week, I still give it a solid grade of A :)
Sounds encouraging. When do you notice the slowness? Any particular app or situtation?

[Mashie]

I will say, that since I stopped using a task closing application, my K-Jam seems speedier! I am guessing that is because the programs are now loading from ROM which is much slower then RAM. Currently I have the following programs running..

Calendar
Windows Media
MSN Messenger
Pocket MSN
Internet Explorer
ACtivesync
Outlook E-Mail

I still have 10.94MB of program memory left

[skagen]

So, enough of this nonsense.

Yes indeed. Nonsense being propaganda from an asshole who gets free phones and works for someone making them.

Do yourself a favor and shut up. You have no right to come here ANONYMOUSLY critisize anyone who actually pays their hard earned money for the phone - which by implication pays your salary.

If there is critisism of the phone, shut up, takes notes and go back and tell your masters the feedback. Thats all you have the right to do.

[Ineedtoys]

So, enough of this nonsense.

Yes indeed. Nonsense being propaganda from an asshole who gets free phones and works for someone making them.

You are wrong on all counts, but I would say that wouldn't I :wink: The only one of those around here is someone who time and time again ignores hard facts, bases their whole argument on supposition and fantasy without a shred of evidence to back it up, and is so far detached from the real world that anyone who dissents against his "word" is a conspirator controlled by some mythical "Ali". Go to a dark room and lay down before the voices take over.

[Ineedtoys]

I will say, that since I stopped using a task closing application, my K-Jam seems speedier! I am guessing that is because the programs are now loading from ROM which is much slower then RAM. Currently I have the following programs running..

Calendar
Windows Media
MSN Messenger
Pocket MSN
Internet Explorer
ACtivesync
Outlook E-Mail

I still have 10.94MB of program memory left

Precisely, which is why the OS was designed that way when PPCs were a quarter of the speed they are now. Sure, it's outdated, but as auto close apps are so widespread (and built into some applications like Pocket Informant), it's not a problem to change if you don't want to work that way.

[skagen]

Go to a dark room and lay down before the voices take over.
Eaxctly what you need to do - stupid fuck.

[Kensai]

Pipe down guys. Please.

Actually, IMHO the only persons that can really illuminate us in this aspect (fat or not) are those who had in the past the JAM/S100 and now have bought the K-JAM/9100 and can confront them right away.

[Ineedtoys]

Welcome to a world:-

Of paranoia:-
"You're writing ghost replies to yourself, now."
"Nonsense being propaganda from an asshole who gets free phones and works for someone making them."
"They are not corporate free toys of the week - which is how YOU get them. Your screen name say sit all. So STFU, I could care less what you think."
"Another 50 page apologist dissertation by the Comical Ali of the pDA world"
"He works for one of these companies and comes on the inetrnet boards all the time to spread propaganda.
Of ignorance:-
the Smartphone Edition cound have an option to enlarge all buttons so that you'd be able to navigate with one hand (ignoring the fact that Smartphone navigation is all one-handed as it doesn't use a touch screen)
it is egnonomically retarded to make the HEART of entry into the device a tiny button crammed in one corner and taking up like 1/50th of the screen space (ignoring the fact that even the biggest thumb can touch the text, as well as the icon, to launch Start).
The Contact section PIM is suppsed to be more than a number lookup. It has notes and all kind of data there. The phone dialer is not gona give you that in any useful way, if at all. (ignoring the fact that all contact details are accessable from the Phone app)
the "close" button doesn't close programs and he calls it a feature.(ignoring the fact that this was intentional, and still offers some benefit)

Of contradiction:-
"And this is a phone - period."
"Its not ONLY a phone"
"obvious omissions in the OS"
"they put that crap out at $500 a pop"
"any moron with a brain could see were bad design"

"I have said before that it is a good PDA
...and average phone."

"a phone with such poor audio performance"
"a phone with bad audio quality"
"the audio quality of this phone is horrible and unacceptable"
"the quality control on this model is crap"
Of denial:-
for all we know these other ones may not turn up at all or in very limited availability(Dismissing the fact that a slimmer, faster, keyboardless Jam will soon be available.)

Of reasoned discussion:-
"Read before you post. Or stick to kindergarten level stuff."
"Save the 50 page garbage for your personal wank sessions"
"Go suck Bill Gates ass"
"Eaxctly what you need to do - stupid fuck."
Of integrity:-
at least I have credibity as someone thinking properly about these thingsAh yes, we can all see that now. :?:

You still haven't answered my simple question Skagen. Why _are_ you still using the Jam after 8 months (and hanging around on a WM enthusiasts' site), if you loathe both the hardware and the OS so much?

[Ineedtoys]

Pipe down guys. Please.

Actually, IMHO the only persons that can really illuminate us in this aspect (fat or not) are those who had in the past the JAM/S100 and now have bought the K-JAM/9100 and can confront them right away.
Well I did _try_ to get things back on topic, before our Danish-American friend waded back in with his obscenities. Got to admit, his refusal to listen to others' opinions, out of hand dismissal of real world evidence, branding of all who disagree as propagandists and conspirators, and insistance that his way is the only way, sounds a bit too familiar. Perhaps he believes that the Windows Of Mobile Devices is something more sinister?

[skagen]

You still haven't answered my simple question Skagen. Why _are_ you still using the Jam after 8 months (and hanging around on a WM enthusiasts' site), if you loathe both the hardware and the OS so much?

As I said, you're a dumb fuck. This site includes a lot of people who come here to resolve problems.

As for the phone I bought it and specialist software which would cost me money to replace on another platform so I'm seeing out my contract.

Some of us actually have skin in the game. We are not stupid jokers like your dumb ass getting them for free and spewing crap on message boards. Undelrined by the fact that you think only "enthusiasts" use this website. Moron - people come here as much to fingure why their phone isn't doing XYZ as the do come here to "enthuse". In your stupidity you're apparently unable to discern the presensce of that wide range of users. You think its all "toys". Well its not.

So feel free to crawl back under whatever rock you came from. Nobody is interested in your 50 page dissertations to nowhere.

[Ineedtoys]

Feel better now? Good. Nurse will be along in minute. :lol:

[kevwright]

Actually skagen, were I you, I would give up now.

It is you that is coming over as a silly kid in this, not the other guy.

I just read the whole thread fresh tonight as I am considering a K-Jam, and previouley owned a JAM.

Now I guess, I will just get called names but keep this in mind.

I AGREE with you on lots of the points you make (the negatives ones) about the Original JAM (and other PPC's)

Wanna know what I did about it? I sold it for only a VERY small loss and bought something else. As I am a Brit, I can't really say "go figure"......

Have a nice day!

Kev

[kevwright]

Actually skagen, were I you, I would give up now.

It is you that is coming over as a silly kid in this, not the other guy.

I just read the whole thread fresh tonight as I am considering a K-Jam, and previouley owned a JAM.

Now I guess, I will just get called names but keep this in mind.

I AGREE with you on lots of the points you make (the negatives ones) about the Original JAM (and other PPC's)

Wanna know what I did about it? I sold it for only a VERY small loss and bought something else. As I am a Brit, I can't really say "go figure"......

Have a nice day!

Kev

[ShALLaX]

Stop replying to this thread. It's obvious he's a troll so you're all just feeding him. I'm fed up of seeing this at the top of the forum each time I log on :D

The next person who replies to this thread will have to have some sort of serious problem ;p

[skagen]

Actually skagen, were I you, I would give up now.
It is you that is coming over as a silly kid in this, not the other guy.


Considering that he started directly attacking me, I personally don't give a damn what you think. Its not the first time he's done it, either. He wants to go at it, we'll be here all day - or all year.

[Ineedtoys]

Actually skagen, were I you, I would give up now.
It is you that is coming over as a silly kid in this, not the other guy.


Considering that he started directly attacking me, I personally don't give a damn what you think. Its not the first time he's done it, either. He wants to go at it, we'll be here all day - or all year.
That's rich, coming from someone who makes allegations out of thin air, resorts to abuse when corrected, and posts profanities in a public forum. The sooner you get your N91 and disappear off to the Nokia forums the better.

Now, back to the Wizard.

[skagen]

That's rich, coming from someone who makes allegations out of thin air, resorts to abuse when corrected, and posts profanities in a public forum.

If by "corrected" you mean subjected to propaganda such as lack of an option to close a program being termed a "feature", then not surprising its rejected. I haven't seen such poor efforts at propaganda in my lifetime. Nor is that "thin air".

As long as you continue to attack me or insist on demeaning or provoking me you can expect a response in kind or worse. I have zero respect for you - so that's the way I will respond to your garbage. If you haven't learned that much by now, then you must be dumber than even I think.

[Ineedtoys]

If by "corrected" you mean subjected to propaganda

I mean replacement of your wildly inaccurate statements (see earlier list) with fact, and the paranoid fantasies and conspiracy theories you pluck from thin air over my connections with WM device vendors.

such as lack of an option to close a program being termed a "feature",

Not terminating applications _was_ a deliberate design decision on early slow PPCs, and _can_ be advantageous on the devices like the Wizard due to the slow loading of programs from ROM. Comments in this thread and in other reviews back this up.

I have zero respect for anyone who constantly makes statements which bear no relation to fact, fails to recognise that occasionly he may be wrong, or that there can be a reason for designing things the way they are. I have even less respect for someone who refuses to listen to what anyone else says (not just from me), but instead responds with foul mouthed name calling and abuse.

As I said, it's not our fault you didn't research what you were buying, and locked yourself into a long term contract. You could have cut your losses long ago and swapped for something more suitable. Stop trying to make everyone else suffer because you didn't, and use the rest of your contract term to enjoy what the Jam _can_ offer, instead of what it can't.

[skagen]

As I said, it's not our fault you didn't research what you were buying, and locked yourself into a long term contract. You could have cut your losses long ago and swapped for something more suitable.

I researched what I was buying thanks. It was mirespresented. And last I checked the makers chose to push these phones under contracts, otherwise their sales would be microscopic. But very typical of the propaganda spewing moron that you are - blame the customer. What a healthy attitude, so primitive its reminiscent of old time soviet union or something.

And thats coming from an a-hole who has zero skin on the line and gets the phones for free. Do us all a favor who actually spend money to buy the phone and shut up. You dont have a say. Twat.


and use the rest of your contract term to enjoy what the Jam _can_ offer, instead of what it can't.

If the best you can offer is vapid statments like this, you need to go back to school.

As I said, you're a moron and a propaganda spewer. Keep at it and you'll continue to get the response you deserve,

[Ineedtoys]

I researched what I was buying thanks. It was mirespresented.

Misrepresented? Because you thought a Pocket PC should be the same as a phone?

And last I checked the makers chose to push these phones under contracts, otherwise their sales would be microscopic.
Of course they're cheaper with a contract you moron, tell me a connected phone that isn't. Otherwise the network providers wouldn't be able to sign anyone up. And everyone knows how Expansys, MMB and SDD et al are struggling with their "microscopic" SIM free sales :roll:

And that's coming from an a-hole who has zero skin on the line and gets the phones for free. Do us all a favor who actually spend money to buy the phone and shut up.

There you go again. More Skagen drivel based purely on fantasy. Actually I buy all my own gadgets. Which is why I find out what they do before I spend my money. And if something's not right, I send it back. Because it is my own money. Mind you I would say that, wouldn't I :twisted:

You dont have a say. Twat.

Glad to see your English vocabulary is coming on nicely. Keep on making your countrymen proud.

--

Great Danes are loving, easy to housebreak, simple to groom, and of average intelligence. Proper early training and socialization are very important. Puppy kindergarten classes are recommended, beginning at about three to six months of age. These classes should be followed with a basic obedience class. - Great Dane Club of America

[skagen]

I researched what I was buying thanks. It was mirespresented.

Misrepresented? Because you thought a Pocket PC should be the same as a phone?

And last I checked the makers chose to push these phones under contracts, otherwise their sales would be microscopic.
Of course they're cheaper with a contract you moron, tell me a connected phone that isn't. Otherwise the network providers wouldn't be able to sign anyone up. And everyone knows how Expansys, MMB and SDD et al are struggling with their "microscopic" SIM free sales :roll:


Is it a "phone" or not? Make up your mind - moron. Within the space of two paragraphs you are calling it a "phone" when you want and a PPC when you want to make a bogus case that its not a phone.

And if they are being sold to consumers as contract PHONES- then don't come here asking why people have them under those circumstance.

At the end of the day, you're just a twat with your head up your own ass. Keep digging yourself deeper - moron.

[jamijam]

Guys... Think about what you're doing. Wasting your time.

I challenge both of you to step away from this thread. Whoever posts again after me is the BIGGEST LOSER IN THE UNIVERSE.

hehe... let's see who it is.


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[Carlos]

Well, I need a program just to keep track of who are the wankers, fuckstains, and ass-nuggets in this thread. One hint though, the loony ranting about how unusable the device is, in the face of lots of people using it and liking it, makes any otherwise valid points unbelievable.

[wardy]

ass nuggets :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I love that one ... this is about the only new thing I have learnt from this thread... Nice one , Oh in the UK we call it a Chuff Nut or a Clinker :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jamijam]

Carlos wins!

[ShALLaX]

You stole my idea of how to stop people posting. I'm going to sue.

[jaythemagician]

why have we got a thread designated to some air head who doesn't like what he bought? I didn't like my tea, can i start a thread bitching about that? please :wink: :lol:

[Carlos]

Oh, look what happened last time you Brits got into an argument about tea...

in the UK we call it a Chuff Nut or a Clinker
Useful information. I think a common one in the US is a "Klingon" or dingleberry. Ass nugget was just my own thing, don't take it as a cultural reference.

[mitchello]

I have just ordered the Wizard (in the form of the i-mate K-JAM) from Expansys for three reasons:

* Builtin Keyboard
* Builtin WiFi
* WM5

I had an iPAQ 4355 before my mini, and absolutely loved the keyboard. I ditched the 4355 + SE T610 combo for the mini for the small size, and convergence. One device.

From the 4355, I really missed the b/i WiFi, and shortly after bought an SD WiFi card, but it just isn't as handy. Also, the keyboard on the 4355 was awesome, and made the device just so much more usable.

I am really looking forward to receiving my K-JAM in about two weeks!!

[xcilion]

I'm not feeling comfortable being in the presence of such interlectuals like Skagen and Ineedtoys.....


Comon guys, please grow up. This is a phone/PPC tweakers forum... not a place to go slag off people you don't even know.

[Ineedtoys]

I am really looking forward to receiving my K-JAM in about two weeks!!
I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Don't expect it to be any speed merchant though - but what it does, it seems to do well.

I've had chance to give a 9100 a brief workout, and found it gives several real improvements over the Jam:-
Good battery life
Good radio (Both the Jam and Treo 650 struggle to maintain a two way conversation with the weak Vodafone signal at my office. The Qtek was crystal clear)
Excellent audio (phone and speakerphone)
Loud ring and SMS tones
Keyboard
Proper D-Pad vertical and horizontal navigation of icons in File Explorer
Non Volatile memory
Wifi
SMS/IE buttons which can be re-mapped for Start/Close
Dedicated Comm Manager button to control WiFi/BT/Audio (but sadly not GSM) - with press & hold quick silent mode.
Battery meter on Today screen
Full power off (as opposed to stand by) function
Context sensitive WM5 Soft buttons (including Today screen Calendar button changing to Notification when something needs your attention in the top status bar)

Speed - I found the main bottleneck is not the CPU speed but the time it takes to load data from the non volatile flash memory. I tested the Calendar with 3500 appointments - it took a painful 12 seconds to load from cold, but less than 2 seconds to call when minimised. Open too many apps and the CPU starts to struggle. SplashID (500 records) loaded in around 2 seconds, as opposed to 1 second on the Jam and half a second on the Treo. So the default "minimize only" behaviour of WM is actually a real advantage here. Keep your most used PIM apps in memory and you won't notice too much difference. To get the best of both worlds, use one of the free add-on task closers, and put your most used apps in the "no close" exceptions list.

WiFi worked well - IE coped with most pages I threw at it, and Outlook could navigate and read messages in an IMAP4 account with over 30 folders without any trouble.

It's not perfect of course - the new Pocket Informant for WM5 struggled with the large databases and ended up with screen corruptions after I forced rescans and view changes half a dozen times (though this could be PI's fault).

I didn't have chance to try movies or games, but the camera is just as crap (the 0.3MP Treo camera still beats it by miles). So if those are priorities you'd be better off waiting for the 400MHz models.

As for the original subject of this thread, I found the little bit of extra girth on the Wizard makes it much more comfortable to hold for extended periods. The Jam always makes my hand ache because of the constant pressure I have to keep on those thin sides to prevent it slipping from grasp. The keyboard is much more comfortable to use than a Treo, and the auto screen rotation works fine (abt 1 second to switch).

The slightly sombre grey and silver Qtek styling reminds me somewhat of the Motorola A1000, but in my opinion that makes it look more professional, especially when you slip out the keyboard. At least people won't think you're taking your Ipod into business meetings!

[outlook_12345]

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[mitchello]

I am extremely happy with my KJAM, as demonstrated in my review of it on the gadgeteer.

http://the-gadgeteer.com/review/i_mate_k_jam_htc_wizard_pocket_pc_phone

[webkami]

I seem to be in the minoriy here, but I don't find the Wizard all that bad in terms of its shape/size/design.

I think first and foremost we need to be focused on FUNCTION, not form. HTC could have made something that looks fantastic and not do anything.

When looking at the side-by-side comparisons of the thickness of the device against the Magician, the extra thickness was necessary to add the slide-out keyboard feature. This is a feature that, IMHO, is well worth the extra thickness. When holding a device in one's hand, thickness is the dimension that's least noticible. I'd rather a device that's a bit thicker than wider or longer.

Couple the slide-out keyboard with WM5, WiFi, more internal memory, and approx. the same width/height as the Magician, and I'm sold.

Fully agreed. Just bought it for keyboard and works great.

Its bulky but thats the price.

[OhGawd]

got my Cingular 8125 last week and compared it to the Motorola MPx220 I had been using for two weeks (but decided to send back - good phone, bad PDA).

The Wizard is the same thickness as the MPx220 and only a few mm larger in height and width. I bought it because of the keyboard and it works quite well. For my large hands, this is a very comfortable size phone - any smaller and I would be worried about dropping it.

Funny thing though - when the berry/treo users see me typing on this they are VERY interested. The Wizard keys are MUCH larger than the average berry/treo - one might think they had key-envy :roll:

As a phone it gets 9.5 out of 10 :)
as a PDA it gets a 9.9 :lol:
as a camera it gets 7.75 :oops:
as a music player is gets 8.5 :o

[jamiemckee]

Going back to the original theme of this topic, I actually think I like the look of the Wizard MORE than the Magician, with it's stylish curvyness and double buttons. :wink:

Sure its a little thicker, but I think it's definitely wort it for the keyboard!! (And wifi!! :o ) I currently have a P900, and got annoyed with writing on the screen and onscreen keyboard. An upgrade to a PPC for me is a great prospect in itself, so I'm not particularly bothered about processor speed or memory. The main reason I've choose the wizard as my next device is that its the best looking PPC phone on O2 with a keyboard and wifi!! :lol:

[molski]

My opinion is that the Magician looks like crap...not The Wizard :)
But hey, that's just my opinion.

And if we are talking about ugly HTC shit, the Universal really looks like crap, but hey.....that also is just my opinion :D

[DJSinCity]

My opinion is that the Magician looks like crap...not The Wizard :)
But hey, that's just my opinion.

I second that to the fullest...The magician in NO way looks good at all, it has sharper edges, the buttons are ugly and functionality is shit...Onscreen keyboards are outdated and wackkk, we need on the go typing that the Wizard has to offer, sometimes we're just too lazy to pull out that damn stylus and jab away at the screen..

[juiceppc]

The only thing I wish the Wizard had done would be to place the soft keys futher away from the Send and End call buttons. Kind of like the 8125. Because I accidentally hit the Send and End buttons a lot.

[molski]

I second that to the fullest...The magician in NO way looks good at all, it has sharper edges, the buttons are ugly and functionality is shit...Onscreen keyboards are outdated and wackkk, we need on the go typing that the Wizard has to offer, sometimes we're just too lazy to pull out that damn stylus and jab away at the screen..

Coudn't said it a lot better then that, viva la Wizard :D

[chrisredmayne]

I think the thing your all forgetting is... What object that is smaller has...

a phone
pda
calculator
sega mega drive, snes, other games
scummvm games up to broken sword level
mp3 player
mpeg / avi player
up to 4 gb storage
the internet!!!
msn messenger
a keyboard to type easy
+ loads more!

this device is amazingly small if you think about it all! If you just want a small phone then forget about the extras, if you want the extras then be happy youve got them!

Personally i dont see it as being too big and I think it looks fine :-) so Im happy

[Webreaper]

LOL. Just reading this thread for the first time. Page 1 had me chortling. Cracks me up how people get so over-excited about devices.

FFS, it's a device, one of many. If you like it, great. If you don't, don't get it. D'oh.

I spent a lot of time looking at the Orange M500 (aka Magician) and considered getting the M600 (Prophet) but in the end plumped for the XDA Mini S (Wizard). Why? Well, the device for me needs to be small (i.e., smaller than a full-sized XDA II) but also needs wifi (so the magician is a non-starter, as I don't want an SDIO wifi card sticking out of the top).

Looked at the Prophet which is a lovely device, and the slightly slimmer form-factor is very attractive. But when it comes down to it, the keyboards is invaluable for me when writing emails and working via terminal services. So the 5mm extra thickness isn't a huge deal, and since the rest of the spec (processor, screen, etc) is essentially identical to the Wizard, it's purely a decision as to whether the keyboard is important or not.

What it comes down to is what you need....

[dahquim]

I love Gandalf
I love Harry Potter

But most of all I Love My Wizard

I went from a magician to a wizard and the increease in fuctionality far out weights the increase in size. i dont want an XDA or universal that make me look like a idiot if i haven't got a Bluetooth handsfree.

What is everyone complaining about. have you actually seen it next to a magician or a nokia 6680. there is hardly any difference, and if your complaining about the 5mm then obviously size matters over functionality.

My 2 pence

Dahquim

[tsiros]

Ugly? The Wizard? I know it is mostly subjective, but there are some characteristics that are objective!

It feels solid and heavy in your palm. More than the S100. It has a serious and official-looking two-tone theme of grey. on the sides, nothing shows when you look it from the front, yet it is easy to use any of the 4 buttons or the volume. it is a clean design with no "ooh look at this, ooh look at that!". Nothing "stands out". It is civilised and quiet. the rear side has this pattern which makes it look very rugged and adds friction when held. It looks dignified and expensive, not extraordinary. The color is matte, not shiny which makes it look even better. Shiny things attract attention because they are shiny. This is not shiny but it attracts attention because it looks "tight". There is no color scheme that will go "old". It is completely neutral which makes it never become boring. If it were shiny blue it would be "wow" the first week, "meh" the second week and by the end of the month it would be "i want something different".

Even though it is very early to tell, there is still no device with WM5, wifi b/g, qwerty which is small enough to be used as a normal phone.

[JwY]

i like the look of the magician more than the wizard, but like the prophet design even more
i still like the wizard, and the only thing i don't really like about it is the thickness
but i rather have the keyboard so i'll live with it for now

[lpasq]

to be fat and ugly is no fun
said the user to the source
damn the wizard's got big buns
but for a human it's much worse