That Idiot Let Libby Off The Hook!!!

[hiimcliff]

<RANT>

:mad: :mad: :mad:

HOW COULD HE SERIOUSLY SAY THE SENTENCE WAS TOO HARSH? HE GOT THE MINIMUM FOR THAT SENTENCE. AND DUDE CONSPIRED TO OUT A CIA AGENT. PUT THE LADY AND HER FAMILY IN HARMS WAY AND THEN LIED TO THE GRAND JURY, JUDGE, PROSECUTORS, AND FBI ABOUT IT.

IF THIS WAS A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY HE WOULD BE PUT IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD FOR TREASON. :mad:

</END RANT>

[Madcap180]

Dang Yankee fans... they get all upset when their team sucks.

[hiimcliff]

Dang Yankee fans... they get all upset when their team sucks.

I wear my yankee emblem proudly. :)

[Rudegar]

well if libby was really just the fallguy for rovoe or even cheney
maybe they had too for him to keep his trap shut ;) :P

[akashastrega]

Oh don't even get me started talking about our Village Idiot. I keep telling myself that in 2008 we will all wake up from a very bad dream!! After his daddy's joke of a Presidency, I KNEW not to vote for Dubya...so don't blame me...I laugh daily at all the Bush-isms, and cry because of how ridiculous the US must look right now to other countries. To all those folks NOT from the US...trust me when I say, the US doesn't want this jackass (or at least the citizens who aren't multi-gazillionaires)...and now THIS????? They went after Bill for booty calls, why in Hell's name aren't we doing something about our slimebag Prez= IMPEACHING his @ss???

UGGG...one more year...one more year...one more year (it seems to be my new mantra).

[Rudegar]

saw some covering of him going to albania
it was mentioned that he was more popular there then
in us at the moment :P

but then recall blair being more popular in us then in uk so maybe thats normal enough

[AD10]

Hmm...was he talking about the speech-bungling-ever-so-clumsy Bush or immaculate-speaking (even-though-lying-through-his-teeth) Blair ?

I would presume the ultimate crown of village idiot goes to Bush...and many do agree.

Now to the issue at hand - Scooter Libby did as he was told - period !

I am sure we are all smart enough to see that, and why should he go to jail for the ever scheming Cheney? Not that I am a fan of www.counterpunch.org (they seem a bunch of disgruntled ex-CIA, ex-FBI ex-XYZ), but they do give you a balanced view to the intrigues of American polics. Those guys were right on the money, even before the Bush intervention was public.

Just do as Mike said...come back home wayward 'poodle'....err more like 'Rottweiler'

lol

[hiimcliff]

Hmm...was he talking about the speech-bungling-ever-so-clumsy Bush or immaculate-speaking (even-though-lying-through-his-teeth) Blair ?

I would presume the ultimate crown of village idiot goes to Bush...and many do agree.

Now to the issue at hand - Scooter Libby did as he was told - period !

I am sure we are all smart enough to see that, and why should he go to jail for the ever scheming Cheney? Not that I am a fan of www.counterpunch.org (they seem a bunch of disgruntled ex-CIA, ex-FBI ex-XYZ), but they do give you a balanced view to the intrigues of American polics. Those guys were right on the money, even before the Bush intervention was public.

Just do as Mike said...come back home wayward 'poodle'....err more like 'Rottweiler'

lol

he did what he was told involving the leak of valerie plame.

now the reason he got convicted because he got caught in lies. the whole point of this thing was for him to tell the truth. if he did, some very important people would have had to go down. like, carl rove. carl rove would have been in the hot seat and would have had to name names. and he would have named the big dick. and it would be all down hill from there.

he lied to protect his cabinet. so he should be in jail. he broke a federal law.

people who break laws, should be in jail.

btw: dont act like its just bush alone who is an idiot. if a scholar follows an idiot, then how much of a scholar can he really be? (speaking of course about tony blair)

[Rudegar]

well as i understand it near the end of the presidency they get to hand out a get out of jail free card :P

recall something like it with clinton but forget it the public outcry caused him to avoid doing it anyway

maybe libby was promised a pardon later on to keep his mouth shut

personaly i dont think anybody really think that it's right or fair
many people in the history have been punished even if they were just
acting under orders
free will should cause one to take ones own stand no matter what anybody tells you to....

[dieseldane]

I think we all forget at times that this is no longer a govt for the people by the people but a govt for the rich and corporations. by the rich and corporations. That's all right though cuz soon us middle of the line folks will be ran down till there is nothing left for them to take. And then who will wipe there as#@.

[Madcap180]

Back home in Boston a FBI agent was sentenced to like 20 years or something like that for helping out a mob guy named Whitey Bulger.. He got more of a sentence then Libby did.. lol

[hiimcliff]

well as i understand it near the end of the presidency they get to hand out a get out of jail free card :P

recall something like it with clinton but forget it the public outcry caused him to avoid doing it anyway

maybe libby was promised a pardon later on to keep his mouth shut

personaly i dont think anybody really think that it's right or fair
many people in the history have been punished even if they were just
acting under orders
free will should cause one to take ones own stand no matter what anybody tells you to....

thats exactly my point here. he had a chance to be a man, or a pawn of the establishment. and he conformed to protect the very people that put him in harms way to begin with.

this transcends party lines. lets forget for a minute that clinton, bush sr, regan, and nixon have all pardoned people. is that the excuse now, because your predecessor has pardoned people, you have to? why can't each man stand on his own record? bush has made it clear that he will not hand out pardons and sentence commutes to the guilty. why should he turn back on his word now?

this makes me feel like our justice system is a big joke. even martha stewart got a year for insider trading. lil kim got a year and a day for the same exact thing libby did... lie to the feds. my parents taught me that if i did the wrong thing i will go to jail. what example is this setting for the rest of the country and the youngsters growing up watching this?

[Madcap180]

<avoids inserting NY joke here>

who did Clinton pardon anyway? .. and .. Since Bush was re-elected, does that mean he got 2 free pardons? lol.. since one of his terms ended already..

[hiimcliff]

<avoids inserting NY joke here>

who did Clinton pardon anyway? .. and .. Since Bush was re-elected, does that mean he got 2 free pardons? lol.. since one of his terms ended already..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010120/aponline135239_000.htm

nobody significant. the most controversial one was hillary's brother. i mean i think they should do away with the pardon thing all together. executive privilege is out of hand.

presidents can pardon how many people they want. they hand out get out of jail free cards like its candy.

[akashastrega]

The truth is that Dubya has been a liar and cheat since day ONE. He can care less about the average American, and rather goes out of his way to line the pockets of the rich buddies who got him into office ($3.31/gallon gas??? Puleez!)...our unemployment levels are insane, are property sales are bottomed out, our economy is far from stable...there are more people living in the U.S at poverty level than there were during the great depression...seriously WTF??? Nobody wants this so-called "War on Terror" to continue, the death toll is beginning to look like Vietnam, and even the soldiers who traditionally are treated well, have been losing benefits and pay...so why serve? In 7 years Dubya has taken us from a healthy and stable economy and growth to sh*t, we are losing allies, and the rest of the world sees the U.S as a bully and/or joke. And sadly it is because of our dipsh*t figurehead and his lying cabinet, when in truth most Americans do not want any association with him...well except for Florida and Ohio (thank the lord he cannot run for a 3rd term)...and for the record, the RIAA/MPAA have prosecuted, won, and served harder punishments on pirates than Libby faced, or was released from. Even Paris Hilton had to have her few short weeks in jail...yet Libby goes free???? To say that this will be a hardship for his family still, despite his not going to jail...he willingly lied and saved the collective asses of the Presidency and Cabinet...if this isn't a reason to call for impeachment I don't know what is!!! Let's compare...a blowjob or swindling and cheating America, lying about the war, commuting sentence on what should be treason...or a blowjob...WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG HERE??? I say let the Prez get booty calls...kept the economy stable and healthy, kept us out of a war, created jobs...a happy Prez is an ok Prez (have yet to see a good Prez)...JFK got tons of booty calls and is remembered as a fantastic Prez...think about it.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." Dubya, August 2004, Washington, DC

end rant.
told you not to get me started talking about the Idiot.

[hiimcliff]

The truth is that Dubya has been a liar and cheat since day ONE. He can care less about the average American, and rather goes out of his way to line the pockets of the rich buddies who got him into office ($3.31/gallon gas??? Puleez!)...our unemployment levels are insane, are property sales are bottomed out, our economy is far from stable...there are more people living in the U.S at poverty level than there were during the great depression...seriously WTF??? Nobody wants this so-called "War on Terror" to continue, the death toll is beginning to look like Vietnam, and even the soldiers who traditionally are treated well, have been losing benefits and pay...so why serve? In 7 years Dubya has taken us from a healthy and stable economy and growth to sh*t, we are losing allies, and the rest of the world sees the U.S as a bully and/or joke. And sadly it is because of our dipsh*t figurehead and his lying cabinet, when in truth most Americans do not want any association with him...well except for Florida and Ohio (thank the lord he cannot run for a 3rd term)...and for the record, the RIAA/MPAA have prosecuted, won, and served harder punishments on pirates than Libby faced, or was released from. Even Paris Hilton had to have her few short weeks in jail...yet Libby goes free???? To say that this will be a hardship for his family still, despite his not going to jail...he willingly lied and saved the collective asses of the Presidency and Cabinet...if this isn't a reason to call for impeachment I don't know what is!!! Let's compare...a blowjob or swindling and cheating America, lying about the war, commuting sentence on what should be treason...or a blowjob...WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG HERE??? I say let the Prez get booty calls...kept the economy stable and healthy, kept us out of a war, created jobs...a happy Prez is an ok Prez (have yet to see a good Prez)...JFK got tons of booty calls and is remembered as a fantastic Prez...think about it.

end rant.
told you not to get me started talking about the Idiot.

*claps*

that was perfect. the only thing ill add is that... there is nothing wrong with a "war on terror". but we cannot, or should not terrorize people to stop terror. all its doing is helping recruit more terrorists. i have family in the armed forces. so i feel sorrow for the troops who have died because of this war. but on a human level i also feel for the 30,000+ civilians (women and children, and innocent men) that died in iraq. how can we force a democracy on a country that ever asked for it in the first place. the last country that tried force something on us, we kicked their ass (england, lol). why can't the same logic go into our foreign policy?

the sentence communication that the president granted single handedly shot down any moral high ground this presidency had left. they are total users and abusers of the system. and the dems are no better for letting it happen.

republicans are blind followers, and dems are spineless bureaucrats with all talk.

i think im going to change my party affiliation to indepenant

[Rudegar]

wonder if senat could stop those pardons if they wanted to?

was ROFL when bush used the senat's hollyday to get Bolton the un ambassador elected by himself because the senat dident want to vote for him
thats pretty wacked democracy :P

[akashastrega]

I come from a military family. My mom, dad and step dad served, my grandpa served, 2 uncles served, my husband served...I have a strong dose of patriotism running through my veins. That said, it is appalling what the troops and their families have had to endure under the Dubya Admin. An article 36 was filed against a soldier in Hawaii for refusing to go to Iraq and (as he stated it) be forced to murder innocents in the name of oil. If found guilty, his military career will end, he will do time, and will forever have problems getting a good-paying job, as the article 36 and dishonorable discharge will forever follow him. He will lose any pension and VA benefits. All for standing up for his beliefs. Libby?? He gets first a slap on the wrist, follow by a presidential release to serve time. WTF????? WTF????? WTF?????
I will always support the soldiers. They and their families make so many sacrifices for crappy pay, and possibly death....but I do not and will not support Dubya and his lies. His "war on terror", or rather fight to control oil producing countries. Saddam is dead. Where is Osama, and why hasn't he been brought in? It is no longer a terrorist hunt, it is an issue of Dubya insuring his oil buddies interests, rather than the interests of U.S.
Libby was (I'm sure) aware of this, and probably knew of items proving this...he "took one for the team" so to speak, and for doing so, Bush covered his @ss. Just one more thing I wish to use as a nail in the coffin of Dubya's lying, cheating presidency.

[Madcap180]

I am kind of anti military .. well, not anti military, I respect the guys who were DRAFTED into the army more than the ones who CHOSE to go and then WHINE about it later.... I dunno.. I can't stand the way George Bush always says 'This war is about protecting the way of life in America' ?? I dont get it, what does Iraq have to do with how WE live? .. we spend 100's of billions of dollars on rebuilding a country, but somewhere in the ghetto's of LA and New York some homeless family can't even get a bite to eat..

FIX HOME FIRST.. hypoctite.

[hiimcliff]

I am kind of anti military .. well, not anti military, I respect the guys who were DRAFTED into the army more than the ones who CHOSE to go and then WHINE about it later.... I dunno.. I can't stand the way George Bush always says 'This war is about protecting the way of life in America' ?? I dont get it, what does Iraq have to do with how WE live? .. we spend 100's of billions of dollars on rebuilding a country, but somewhere in the ghetto's of LA and New York some homeless family can't even get a bite to eat..

FIX HOME FIRST.. hypoctite.
point taken...

however, murphy says "where a man stands on an issue depends on where he sits".

bush, nor his cabinet can relate to a homeless family in la or new york. to a lot of people, they have the mind set of "why can't they just get a job". they dont understand the social ills in the innercity or how to change them. most of the guys who make the laws were born with a silver spoon, most of the guys who look up to them are dirt poor.

p.s. thats whats really wrong with the republican party. their base is so blind that they dont even realize that their representatives dont even represent them. i always find it amazing when i have a discussion with a middle class white person that they are republican and dont even know why. their party does absolutely nothing for them.

dont blame the troops though. they take advantage of what options are available to them. the armed forces recruit in the inner cities and the poor rural areas because they know those people hardly other options. it is only after they get out of the military that they understand what was really going on all along. while in the military i think they feel they have an obligation to not question their leaders. i guess they see that as insubordination. however, leaders are human too. and they are also american.

i'll end by saying this. i can't stand when another american questions my patriotism because i am against this war. i was against this war from the start. when it was UNCOOL to speak out against the war. and i still am against the war. i support the troops but i do not support what they are doing in iraq.

i thank akashastrega's family for their contribution.

[Madcap180]

Thats how I feel exactly hiimcliff.. Support the troops, just don't support their bosses.. ;)

[akashastrega]

point taken...

however, murphy says "where a man stands on an issue depends on where he sits".

bush, nor his cabinet can relate to a homeless family in la or new york. to a lot of people, they have the mind set of "why can't they just get a job". they dont understand the social ills in the innercity or how to change them. most of the guys who make the laws were born with a silver spoon, most of the guys who look up to them are dirt poor.

p.s. thats whats really wrong with the republican party. their base is so blind that they dont even realize that their representatives dont even represent them. i always find it amazing when i have a discussion with a middle class white person that they are republican and dont even know why. their party does absolutely nothing for them.

dont blame the troops though. they take advantage of what options are available to them. the armed forces recruit in the inner cities and the poor rural areas because they know those people hardly other options. it is only after they get out of the military that they understand what was really going on all along. while in the military i think they feel they have an obligation to not question their leaders. i guess they see that as insubordination. however, leaders are human too. and they are also american.

i'll end by saying this. i can't stand when another american questions my patriotism because i am against this war. i was against this war from the start. when it was UNCOOL to speak out against the war. and i still am against the war. i support the troops but i do not support what they are doing in iraq.

i thank akashastrega's family for their contribution.

Thanks. It takes a lot of guts to be a military family (and I am saying this as an Army Brat). Military life is really hard on the families. When someone who is anti-war goes off about the troops, I get pissed, because I know first hand the sacrifices the families make. Having said that...I too, have been anti-war since day one when it was not the popular view. I am still against it. I applaud the soldier in Hawaii who stood up for what he believed and said NO...even though his actions will haunt him for the rest of his life. I will always support the troops, and even more to the point their families, I will never support Dubya and his agenda. As for recruiting in the inner cities...while I don't fully agree with it, in many cases it has created opportunities that may not otherwise have happened. Free college, medical coverage, even free housing for families, and a guaranteed, albeit crappy, paycheck. I think however, recruitment should happen across the board...tag Harvard, not just Compton. The idea is take some undereducated person and promise them the world, and a way out of a crappy life. I think silver spoons need to ENLIST (not be pampered officers), and grunt it out with the inner city enlisters. Get their hands dirty for once. Our poverty levels are climbing, our wealthy levels are climbing, our middle class is fading, they are either getting quite rich or losing their shirts...and Bush doesn't care. It is all about his agenda. Who cares how many soldiers and innocents die. Who cares if the constituency is solidly against the war. We are no longer the voices of the Nation, and sadly, few of us are willing to stand up to be heard.

http://www.unity08.com/

[jwzg]

I come from a military family. My mom, dad and step dad served, my grandpa served, 2 uncles served, my husband served...I have a strong dose of patriotism running through my veins. That said, it is appalling what the troops and their families have had to endure under the Dubya Admin. An article 36 was filed against a soldier in Hawaii for refusing to go to Iraq and (as he stated it) be forced to murder innocents in the name of oil. If found guilty, his military career will end, he will do time, and will forever have problems getting a good-paying job, as the article 36 and dishonorable discharge will forever follow him. He will lose any pension and VA benefits. All for standing up for his beliefs. Libby?? He gets first a slap on the wrist, follow by a presidential release to serve time. WTF????? WTF????? WTF?????
I will always support the soldiers. They and their families make so many sacrifices for crappy pay, and possibly death....but I do not and will not support Dubya and his lies. His "war on terror", or rather fight to control oil producing countries. Saddam is dead. Where is Osama, and why hasn't he been brought in? It is no longer a terrorist hunt, it is an issue of Dubya insuring his oil buddies interests, rather than the interests of U.S.
Libby was (I'm sure) aware of this, and probably knew of items proving this...he "took one for the team" so to speak, and for doing so, Bush covered his @ss. Just one more thing I wish to use as a nail in the coffin of Dubya's lying, cheating presidency.

Man, what a discourse. My expectations for the Bush presidency were totally dashed when we went to war in Iraq. I cannot believe that a man could lie to the American public as the current president has and still be elected. I guess that shows what absolute far-left liberals that Kerry and Gore were. I was criticized severely by my family for being against this war. They were so full of faux-patriotism, Fox News and terror alerts, they didn't see this train wreck coming. Now, my Dad grudgingly gives me credit for my observations, but he still wonders how I came to that conclusion so early. Reason: I don't live in the states. Getting my information from so many different sources has forced me to see through all of the political/money motives of this disastrous presidency and get to the real issues.

President Bush had better be using that "born again", fake religion of his to pray a Democrat doesn't get to the White House next year, or there is going to be hell on earth to pay for his misdeeds.

BTW, I'm a former US Marine reservist of 6 years, honorably discharged.

[akashastrega]

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday refused to rule out an eventual pardon for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, leaving open the chance he may wipe away the former White House aide's criminal record after already erasing his prison sentence.
"I rule nothing in or nothing out," Bush said when asked about whether he might pardon Libby before leaving office in January 2009.

The president's stance, on one level, was merely practical. When he commuted Libby's 2 1/2-year prison term in the CIA leak case on Monday, a court ruling had made jail time imminent. Bush has plenty of time to consider a pardon, depending on how Libby's appeals go.

Bush's words had political significance, too. By keeping his options open, he offered hope to the conservative members of his own party who believe he should go further in pardoning Libby. He also kept alive a controversy that could follow him to the last day of his presidency.

Libby, who once wielded enormous influence as chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, was convicted of lying and obstructing justice in a probe into the leak of a CIA operative's identity. The long-running case meant the end of Libby's government career and dovetailed with the broader troubles of Bush's second term in office.

Bush abruptly commuted Libby's prison sentence — an unusual step, given that it had not yet begun — five hours after a federal appeals court panel ruled that Libby could not delay his prison term. Bush left intact the sentence of two years probation and a $250,000 fine, citing a need for some accountability.

In his first public comments on the matter on Tuesday, Bush defended his rationale.

"I felt like the jury verdict ought to stand, and I felt like some of the punishments that the judge determined were adequate should stand," Bush said after visiting wounded soldiers at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. "But I felt like the 30-month sentencing was severe."

"I made a judgment, a considered judgment," the president added. "I stand by it."

Bush took heat from the left and the right.

The conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page said Bush's unwillingness to pardon Libby was "another profile in non-courage."

On the other side, Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said of the prospect of eventual pardon for Libby: "The motto of this administration seems to be: When you're in a hole up to your neck, keep digging."

Unlike the commutation, a pardon would wipe away Libby's felony conviction.



**DAMN, AND HERE I WAS B*TCHING ABOUT WIPING AWAY JAIL TIME...THE SOB MAY JUST PARDON HIM COMPLETELY!!! To me, a pardon would scream that the Prez is up to his eyeballs in lies--which we all suspect and in reality know, but to me, this would confirm it.**

[AD10]

he did what he was told involving the leak of valerie plame.

now the reason he got convicted because he got caught in lies. the whole point of this thing was for him to tell the truth. if he did, some very important people would have had to go down. like, carl rove. carl rove would have been in the hot seat and would have had to name names. and he would have named the big dick. and it would be all down hill from there.

he lied to protect his cabinet. so he should be in jail. he broke a federal law.

people who break laws, should be in jail.

btw: dont act like its just bush alone who is an idiot. if a scholar follows an idiot, then how much of a scholar can he really be? (speaking of course about tony blair)

hiimcliff et al -

Kudos first of all to all the people who have contributed to htis thread. It is one of the most exciting I have read on this forum !

All understood, and well said...so why are we surprised the cabinet (albeit Bush and Cheney) have not only commuted his sentense, but are also considering a FULL pardon i.e a clean slate !

Libby broke the law for the custodians of the law....I bet his fine was fully paid with your taxes too....and his retirement benefits too.

I dont see anything new in what is going on in the US - vis-a-vis Scootergate...a little digging of the history books will unveil a whole load of hogwash, very similar hogwash.

I hear the lady (Plame) was sacrified because of her husbands interests...but what do I know, I live in Britain.


BTW - There's an african proverb that says 'If you call a cow your kinsman, he will give you meant' - Thats what the intellectual Blair has done.....but Britian in Europe and the World at large is a different kettle of fish (Politics).
Many here say Britain is the 53rd state of the US..

[hiimcliff]

hiimcliff et al -

Kudos first of all to all the people who have contributed to htis thread. It is one of the most exciting I have read on this forum !

All understood, and well said...so why are we surprised the cabinet (albeit Bush and Cheney) have not only commuted his sentense, but are also considering a FULL pardon i.e a clean slate !

Libby broke the law for the custodians of the law....I bet his fine was fully paid with your taxes too....and his retirement benefits too.

I dont see anything new in what is going on in the US - vis-a-vis Scootergate...a little digging of the history books will unveil a whole load of hogwash, very similar hogwash.

I hear the lady (Plame) was sacrified because of her husbands interests...but what do I know, I live in Britain.


BTW - There's an african proverb that says 'If you call a cow your kinsman, he will give you meant' - Thats what the intellectual Blair has done.....but Britian in Europe and the World at large is a different kettle of fish (Politics).
Many here say Britain is the 53rd state of the US..

well there is no way for us to know why she was outed unless someone steps forward and admits. the reason most people believe is that her husband was very outspoken and vocal about bush's reasons to go to war. i believe it was him who shed light on the Italian documents that pretty much proved they falsified and exaggerated CIA intelligence so they can take the country to war. it was then that the word got past down from a higher source to go talk to a journalist from the times i believe and casually let that slip in conversation. plame's husband was specifically critical of cheney. and thats whom office the leak came from. coincidence? i think NOT!

[starkruzr]

I'm surprised how much this forum apparently lives in the reality-based community rather than the Faux News universe. It's amazing how often I discover geeky types to be completely misguided archconservatives.

That said, I pine for the day of the paleoconservative. Ike Eisenhower, Barry Goldwater... those were REAL conservatives. I registered R in '97 when I was 18 because I thought the Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! As Daffy Duck might say, it is to laugh.

What I would like to see is the introduction of Instant Runoff Voting to national elections so we can have more than just two parties, but that will never happen.

[hiimcliff]

I'm surprised how much this forum apparently lives in the reality-based community rather than the Faux News universe. It's amazing how often I discover geeky types to be completely misguided archconservatives.

That said, I pine for the day of the paleoconservative. Ike Eisenhower, Barry Goldwater... those were REAL conservatives. I registered R in '97 when I was 18 because I thought the Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! As Daffy Duck might say, it is to laugh.

What I would like to see is the introduction of Instant Runoff Voting to national elections so we can have more than just two parties, but that will never happen.

those misguided archconservatives as you refer to them as... i think they are holding their tongue. they have to be. there are lots of them out there and they put W in power. so i have no doubt they are on this board. anyway.... the republican party has been losing their way for a LONNNNNNNNG time now. that is why the black vote jumped ship. that is why andrew jackson even formed the two party system. in my humble opinion, they have been come more abstract every year. sometimes when you say core conservatives its kind of hard not to chuckle because they dont even know what they believe in anymore. at least their voting history in recent years dont suggest it.

peace,

Cliff
the not so liberal dem from the big apple