Danger time for Qualcomm/HTC ?

[ianl8888]

A news report I read today (Thurs Jan 03, 2008) stated that a US Federal Court judge has ruled that Qualcomm must cease immediately selling 3rd generation WCDMA cellular chips that infringe on patents held by Broadcom.

The news report did NOT list which exact chips these are.

So, obvious question: does the P3650 Polaris CPU fall into the "banned for Qualcomm" category ?

Does anyone have reliable, accurate knowledge of which chips are actually affected by this ?

[hqqh]

Hi,
I found this article:

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HVYWDP3Q0PICWQSNDLSCK HA?articleID=205206967

It contains the following statement:
"Shipments of chipsets for devices intended for international markets were not affected by the ruling."

Regards,
hqqh

[ianl8888]

Yes, thank you for that. I'd found 2 other similar reports.


"Shipments of chipsets for devices intended for international markets were not affected by the ruling."

This is a comment from Qualcomm - perhaps Broadcom doesn't believe it !?

The situation seems critical enough. It's very hard to believe any of the reports tell all of the truth.

[hinz]

Read this http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/12-31-07_Permanent_Injunction_Order.pdf

in brief the MSM7200 chipset (in the polaris) has been banned in the ruling, but as far as I know it only affects devices sold in the US

[bluebee]

Read this http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/12-31-07_Permanent_Injunction_Order.pdf

in brief the MSM7200 chipset (in the polaris) has been banned in the ruling, but as far as I know it only affects devices sold in the US

Oh my God. I got TC only this new year and i am in US. What does that mean if it is banned.... Can any one tell me what should we do if this ban news is correct..

[RaptorRVL]

I don't think there will be big problems. Also considering the amount of phones the chipset is in already. Most likely Qualcomm will be using the same chipset with some modifications to avoid legal problems. Or they make a deal and pay some (a lot) of money to continue using the current chipset.
If they are wise they keep most of the stuff the same (it would cost a lot of money to design a completely new chipset). And as I've read it now, the legal problems with the chipset don't include the parts where we have problems with (video driver). Only time will tell... But so far I'm not that worried.

By the way, the ruling als states (as far as I've read) that they can keep on selling the chips to their current partners where they already have a deal with. So there won't be an early end to the HTC phones with this chipset.

[Rudegar]

a ruling in us only goes in us companys have to sue in every country to enforce patents
so one can just buy a qualcomm based phone from another country then usa have it ship'd that they cant sell them in usa dont mean feds will be comming round collecting know qualcomm owning offenders ;)

[RaptorRVL]

But in what country is the HQ of Qualcomm? A quick look at wikipedia shows that's in the US. (or ofcourse I'm looking at another company, who knows :D )
Qualcomm (NASDAQ: QCOM) is a wireless telecommunications research and development company based in San Diego, California.
That could make it difficult with this ruling. However they would be stupid not to find a solution because it will be difficult for them if they can't continue. They've tried legal action so far and that hasn't payed off. But I can imagine there are still other options they can explore and probably will explore as well.

[SoberGuy]

But in what country is the HQ of Qualcomm? A quick look at wikipedia shows that's in the US. (or ofcourse I'm looking at another company, who knows :D )

Nope, that's them. If you're ever in the area (lol), I'll cruise you by and show you their little complex of buildings.

[ianl8888]

Read this http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/12-31-07_Permanent_Injunction_Order.pdf

in brief the MSM7200 chipset (in the polaris) has been banned in the ruling, but as far as I know it only affects devices sold in the US

Thank you for the link to the actual ruling.

Yes, I agree that the ruling is quite clear - the MSM7200 chip (in the Polaris) is subject to patent restriction, but limited to the US. (That is a puzzle in itself). Unless Qualcomm pays Broadcom the prescribed royalties for US-sold products, the Polaris as it is currently fabricated is dead-in-the water in the US.

This is not to say that Qualcomm won't appeal the ruling. My hard experience over many years is that when lawyers and judges become involved, they are the only end-winners.

Qualcomm also maintain that they have pin-to-pin equivalents that do not infringe, but the Polaris as currently manufactured does not use these alternatives.

[ianl8888]

Now I also wonder at a question I have asked in another thread - UK retailers that are currently claiming stock or "real soon now" stock (eg. Expansys UK) have also recently edited the spec list to quote ONLY 2100Mhz for UMTS in Europe.

The US and other countries (including Aus) use 850Mhz outside the cities. So if we accept that newly-arriving retail stock is limited to 2100Mhz (ie. single, not tri-band) then the UTMS capability is very limited.

And then I lose interest in the thing.

[butzchan]

The HTC website still says HSDPA/UMTS: 2100 MHz (Europe), 850/1900 MHz (USA).

Wonder if this will change...it did for the S730 (has the same chipset as the Polaris).

[ianl8888]

Relax posts 11 and 12. I have the Polaris in my hand right now and it is for sure TRIBAND UMTS/HSDPA and as I like to say for our side of the Pond. I am one of the first in the USA to have this device and it does work very quickly I might add on the US 850/1900MHZ UMTS/HSDPA Band. Buy it for it is the lightest pocket pc/pda/phone on the market and very good looking too.Thanks, Kevin

Thank you for your comment. That is exactly what I have been asking of current owners for 3-4 days now (up till now, no answer).

BUT I will not lay out $$$ until I am absolutely assured that the device as now retailed now is tri-band.

There still remains the distinct possibility that retail stock before and after this court ruling are differently configured.

[kevinrirvine]

Thank you for your comment. That is exactly what I have been asking of current owners for 3-4 days now (up till now, no answer).

BUT I will not lay out $$$ until I am absolutely assured that the device as now retailed now is tri-band.

There still remains the distinct possibility that retail stock before and after this court ruling are differently configured.
@ianl8888,
I think truthfully your making a mine out of a molehill. Htc or no oem can change the spec's after a device is released and this whole quaLcomm situation is stll filled with uncertainty and it will take possibly yrs for the courts and lawyer's to resolve. I bought mine just 3 dys ago at www.onthegosolutions.com and they are very reputABLE and I have done bsuiness with them for yrs and you will get the Polaris triband and all I assure you. No one in the country USA has stock now yet they do and it will ship the same day however you like. As for expansys UK, NEVER, REPEAT NEVER GO BY ANYHING THEY SAY OR DO FOR I HAVE DEALT WITH THEM BEFORE AND IT WAS A NIGHTMARE.

[Abbsta]

As for expansys UK, NEVER, REPEAT NEVER GO BY ANYHING THEY SAY OR DO FOR I HAVE DEALT WITH THEM BEFORE AND IT WAS A NIGHTMARE.

Really? in what way? I have it on back order with them.

Side questions: Am I allowed to use my credit card for multiple back orders? I might have to place another back order with a different retailer if they are really that bad.

[kevinrirvine]

Really? in what way? I have it on back order with them.

Side questions: Am I allowed to use my credit card for multiple back orders? I might have to place another back order with a different retailer if they are really that bad. They really are that bad and it is a long and complicated story. Deal with Clove Tech and Tell them Kevin Irvine sent you and they will take very good care of your order and keep you up to date about stock pricing etc. A very honest company. Simply put, I sent several e-mails to them to cancel my order for the toshiba g900 when it was first released and they never had the courtesy of a reply back and then out of the blue stock came in and they shipped to me, charged my card illegally and to top it all off did not declare the device properly for US Customs so it was held for days until I not they had to solve the problem. Then when I finally received it I refused delivery and expansys never returned any of fed ex's calls to return the item to them and you probably get the point by now.

Yes, to your first question but be careful here for if the companies your placing your backorder's with get stock on the same day for example your in trouble. Kevin

[Abbsta]

Sorry to hear about that and I better cancel it then. Cheers for the advice Kevin.

[ianl8888]

@ianl8888,
I think truthfully your making a mine out of a molehill. Htc or no oem can change the spec's after a device is released and this whole quaLcomm situation is stll filled with uncertainty and it will take possibly yrs for the courts and lawyer's to resolve. I bought mine just 3 dys ago at www.onthegosolutions.com and they are very reputABLE and I have done bsuiness with them for yrs and you will get the Polaris triband and all I assure you. No one in the country USA has stock now yet they do and it will ship the same day however you like. As for expansys UK, NEVER, REPEAT NEVER GO BY ANYHING THEY SAY OR DO FOR I HAVE DEALT WITH THEM BEFORE AND IT WAS A NIGHTMARE.

Again, thank you for your comment. I had no doubt that earlier retail supply was tri-band; I have much doubt about later supply - the Court order states "IMMEDIATE STOP ..." and turning off available UMTS frequencies is a fairly simple ROM change. That's not a molehill. Perhaps the ROM cookers here can bypass that !

The only bright spot here is the limitation to US-only sales. Purchasing a fully specced device from elsewhere bypasses that, with the downside of Warranty service also being elsewhere.

I agree with you on marketing - marketers are to be trusted even less than lawyers, if that were possible. UK retailers other than Expansys have also changed the spec list in the last 3-4 days.

Supply is still in the "real soon now" category for most of the world. So we only have to wait for "real soon now".

Lastly, I'm not panicking in the slightest. If the thing really is crippled by Qualcomm's Court-decided patent infringements, that's simply too bad. Another "thing" will turn up eventually, without the rain clouds, in response to demonstrated world-wide demand. But the impact of this Court decision will be felt - we can't yet predict how.

[bluebee]

Hello Everyone, I am using HTC touch cruise for the last one week and it is such a cool device. got from On the go solutions. But after lots of confusions in the thread, is it any way to check what frequency of UMTS that my phone supports. I m with T-Mobile and there is no 3G. Is there any where can i check.. Please...

[skara]

Mates, think waht you're discussing 'bout!
Qualcomm is forbidden to sell it's chips - since the beginning of this week!
HTC may have ordered a few 10.000th items of this chip for the polaris which are obviously already delivered.
The polaris is assembled in taiwan.
And last the devices have to be delivered all 'round the world (hee - something like santa hoohoo).

You thing, the time from delivering the chips from qc to htc and the device in the stores is less than one week?

All devices, which are sold till now are fully functional!

All other will do well too ...
Designing a mobile (any so called hightech) lasts several months. If they change the umts-functions they will to it by firmware change ;) they won't be able to simply replace the chip. Or they leave it like it is, maybe some compensation will be payed to Broadcomm.

greetz
a happy polaris owner :D

[RaptorRVL]

Well, please search for some articles and read them people.

From reuters:
Qualcomm can use rival chip patents till 09 (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN3159063420071231)

Qualcomm barred from using Broadcom 3G patents - Page 1 (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN3159063420080101?pageNumber=1)
Qualcomm barred from using Broadcom 3G patents - Page 2 (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN3159063420080101?pageNumber=2)

From reuters:
Qualcomm says Broadcom ruling to hurt short-term - Page 1 (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0262822220080102?pageNumber=1)
Qualcomm says Broadcom ruling to hurt short-term - Page 2 (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0262822220080102?pageNumber=2)
Qualcomm says Broadcom ruling to hurt short-term - Page 3 (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0262822220080102?pageNumber=3)

From news.com:
Qualcomm says Broadcom ruling to hurt in short term (http://www.news.com/Qualcomm-New%2C-compliant-chipsets-ready/2100-1039_3-6224256.html)


From what I've read there (and on some other sites) they can keep on using the chips till '09. At least for the deals they already have made, but they have to pay royalties.

Qualcomm can already deliver a workaround chipset quite soon (so they were already prepared) but as it seems the court/judge wants have a look at that and how.
Selna also ordered the companies to file a joint report before the February hearing about how they plan to handle Qualcomm's attempts to "design around" the infringing chips.

Read it and make up your mind yourself I'd say. Personally I don't think it's all that bad. They can keep on using the current chips for some time while paying royalties for that. And they already have a workaround chipset which is available for device manufacturers.

[mbeijer]

so there is something to do with the 3g connectivity...

i've had the phone now for over a week and noticed that i have to set my band specific to gsm (normally on 'auto') to be able to call en get calls... then my 3g only doesn't work... if i put it to auto again i have 3g but calls are redirected to voice mail i cannot callout and messages are delayed...

anybody an idea of a solution... has this to do with rom? or is my opperator settings wrong?

[ianl8888]

RaptorRVL

Thank you for your contribution. I had already read most of Qualcomm's published replies, but had not realised Motorola was involved here as well.

It isn't simply that Qualcomm has to pay royalties on whatever they sell now - it's dated from May, 2007 when a jury found them guilty. So obviously units already sold will be subject to royalty payment but cannot now be re-priced to the customer ... it's not hard to guess how Qualcomm will cover these debts.

Workaround chipsets are subject to Court examination in about 6 weeks and there cannot be a reliable prediction (especially not from Qualcomm) on the result of that. Once such an examination has occurred and some sort of Court sanction negotiated, device fabricators have to re-gear. This implies a futher long-enough time lag in release dates for products using the current infringing chipsets.

You will also notice, I'm sure, that the end consumer is not considered at all in these shenanigans. Far from "not too bad", I think it's a complete and probably cynical f***-up in order to try and cash in on 3.5G.

The most irritatingly depressing part is that this is not atypical of the industry.

[jgermuga]

the MSM7200 chip (in the Polaris) is subject to patent restriction, but limited to the US. (That is a puzzle in itself).


This is quite common. At one of my former gigs I built a forcasting system for patent filings, and esentially, every country has their own rules, with some overlap for European Common Market filings. Very complicated! This is why patent attorneys make mad money.


Unless Qualcomm pays Broadcom the prescribed royalties for US-sold products, the Polaris as it is currently fabricated is dead-in-the water in the US.

Seems this should be the same case for the Kaiser. In addition, I thought the result was a royalty for some products whcih were intorduced before a certain date (June 2007??) and a complete injunction against products introduced after that, meaning they would need t be pulled from production and the sotre shelves.

So this definitely has me wondering if the reason HTC has not come up with drivers yet is that they were wating to see how this case played out. I could see where they may decide to drop the chipset entirely because it complicates thier distribution process and perhpas they didn't want to invest in a chip set that is going to be retired.

[RaptorRVL]

So this definitely has me wondering if the reason HTC has not come up with drivers yet is that they were wating to see how this case played out. I could see where they may decide to drop the chipset entirely because it complicates thier distribution process and perhpas they didn't want to invest in a chip set that is going to be retired.
Manufacturing multiple new devices with this chip doesn't exactly sound like 'waiting and see how this plays out'.
The Touch Dual, Touch Cruise ánd S730 all come with the Qualcomm chipset. I don't think they are waiting with the drivers because of the Qualcomm situation. It's quite stupid to wait with the drivers but start shipping out three new models.

Also I think it's highly unlikely HTC will pull back their products because of this. It's not directly their problem but Qualcomms problem. The main thing HTC has to worry about is the future, what chipsets can Qualcomm deliver. And will Qualcomm be able to make a chipset with a workaround that can be used immediately by HTC. I'm sure manufacturers are not waiting for a completely different chipset that costs a lot of time to implement again. If Qualcomm is smart they make a workaround chipset that can be used exactly the same as the other chipset. Most 'easy solution', but only the future will tell if that's possible.

But who knows, maybe I'm too optimistic. In that case I'm here to try and even out the pessimistic posts a bit :D

[ianl8888]

Very complicated! This is why patent attorneys make mad money.



Thank you for that. I also stated that when lawyers and judges become involved, they are the only winners !!

I worked once for a very large multi-national mining company (several, in fact) as a Geology Manager. These people had several in-house lawyers - and a very cool bonus concept for them: the end-of-year bonus depended on how well they had stayed out of court that year ... love it, love it.

[kevinrirvine]

Hello Everyone, I am using HTC touch cruise for the last one week and it is such a cool device. got from On the go solutions. But after lots of confusions in the thread, is it any way to check what frequency of UMTS that my phone supports. I m with T-Mobile and there is no 3G. Is there any where can i check.. Please...
Go to phone, options, settings, band selection and there you will see what frequencies your device supports. However, I also bought mine from on the go about the same time you did and am on ATT AND i can absolutely assure you in spite of what other's have said in this thread your's has TRIBAND UMTS/HSDPA. Mine flys on HSDPA so to be honest I am a bit confused why you would pay $799.00 for such a high end device and being with t-mo you can't access the advanced features of this device. Hope this helps. Kevin

[grgomes]

Something is not clear to me: what is the broken patent about? I read the broadcom and Qualcom announcements and they say nothing. Is it about the 3G frequencies operated in US?

I just read the press release from Qualcomm and it says the international devices were not affected by the ruling, in other words, HTC will probaly have to manufacture Polaris with new chips for US. As said by qualcomm:

http://www.qualcomm.com/press/releases/2008/080102_new_umts_products.html

"The Mobile Station Modem™ (MSM™) MSM6271™, MSM6281™, MSM7201™ and MSM7201A™ chipsets are available to customers who are shipping UMTS devices into the United States.

New product for U.S. market / Existing product for international markets
MSM6271 / MSM6275™
MSM6281 / MSM6280™
MSM7201 / MSM7200™
MSM7201A / MSM7200A™"

I just don't know yet the difference between each other. maybe the ones on the left will be single-band UMTS, right?

That is indeed very important to me because here in Brazil we have now 850 mhz carriers but new ones will probably be using 2100 mhz. And I am choosing whether to buy it in US or Europe.
Besides, it sucks to have a single UMTS phone. Not useful abroad.

[reyjabs]

"The Mobile Station Modem™ (MSM™) MSM6271™, MSM6281™, MSM7201™ and MSM7201A™ chipsets are available to customers who are shipping UMTS devices into the United States.

New product for U.S. market
MSM6271
MSM6281
MSM7201
MSM7201A

This means any HTC Touch Cruise coming into the US should use only any of the aforementioned chips.



Existing product for international markets
MSM6275™
MSM6280™
MMSM7200™
MSM7200A


This means HTC can continue using this chipset for product intended for sale outside the US.

By the looks of it, 450,000 HTC Touch Cruise initially intended for the US distributors and resellers will now be, either held in abeyance or shipped to other countries, most probably Europe, Central America and Rest of the World. Thats good news my friend. You see, higher inventory results in price reduction.

A huge number of them are coming into the UK market as of this writing causing the release to be a week earlier than slated on major distributor sites. It has been confirmed over the phone 0845 2222 786. :)

Stocks will be released tomorrow from Customs and pre-order dispatch will commence on Friday, 11th of January 2008. Cheers guys! The wait is now over.

http://www.in2mobiles.co.uk/htc-touc...se-p30853.html (http://www.in2mobiles.co.uk/htc-touch-cruise-p30853.html)

but, wait!

What's this?

http://pdadb.net/img/meizu_m8_minione.jpg (http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=987)

and this,

http://www.techcrunch.com/wp-content/gphone.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FJHYqE0RDg)

Now, i'm having second thoughts.:rolleyes:

[ianl8888]

A huge number of them are coming into the UK market as of this writing causing the release to be a week earlier than slated on major distributor sites. It has been confirmed over the phone 0845 2222 786. :)



That's really interesting. Perhaps Qualcomm/HTC have found a way out, although it leaves the huge US market gasping in the dust until the "new" chips are Court-approved, fabricated and assembled in the US devices.

But, please, who does the phone number 08452222786 belong to ? I'm O/S, phoning UK numbers is difficult, especially when I have no idea who I'm phoning.

[reyjabs]

That's really interesting. Perhaps Qualcomm/HTC have found a way out, although it leaves the huge US market gasping in the dust until the "new" chips are Court-approved, fabricated and assembled in the US devices.

But, please, who does the phone number 08452222786 belong to ? I'm O/S, phoning UK numbers is difficult, especially when I have no idea who I'm phoning.

http://www.in2mobiles.co.uk/htc-touch-cruise-p30853.html

and if you're calling from outside UK, use this number +448452222786

[ianl8888]

http://www.in2mobiles.co.uk/htc-touch-cruise-p30853.html

and if you're calling from outside UK, use this number +448452222786

Thank you for that.

But that retailer is one of those playing the "shell game" with listed UMTS frequencies - only 2100Mhz is listed. Perhaps they are now not allowed to advertise the 850Mhz frequency, perhaps the ROM is deliberately crippled now.

I'll contact the retailer tonight (my time) for an answer.

[SoberGuy]

If it's just the ROM that's crippled any additional (US) frequencies, that's a pretty easy fix, right? I mean, of course once a ROM is released here.

[Pawel062]

some sites are inaccurate and from past expirence on htc devices the frequencies arent crippled just not advertised(ala htc touch being quad band). Im 99.9% sure all the polaris are triband umts/hsdpa/hsupa and quad band gprs/gsm/edge. There might be varients in the future though that might have bands changed or added say for tmobile usa's 3g

[ianl8888]

I'll contact the retailer tonight (my time) for an answer.

OK, just phoned (9:30am UK time Thursday 10) and asked the question on tri-band frequencies for UMTS

"Don't know" was the salesman's reply. He has promised to find out and email me back.

Well, maybe ... oh, and supply is back another 4-5 days ...