Almost left Athena for another device...

[toyfreak]

I'll make this short and sweet since I'm @work and need to well, work...

I was growing tired of the burden of having the Athena with me all the time so I went down to at&t and got a Tilt... Nice phone (except for video issues which will be fixed hopefully) but I simply could not get used to a small screen again, especially for finger typing. Athena's big screen really reduces the need to use a stylus. In fact, I only use it for actually writing notes on the screen.

So, I thought, maybe 2 devices again? I could go to the Moto Q9 Global and the HP iPAQ 210/211 (release iminent if not out already...) But, the lack of wi-fi on the Moto was a deal-breaker for me since I sometimes spend 2 or 3 days at a time in a location with wi-fi only. I had the Q for a week and returned it.

I simply could not adapt to either device; I have adapted to the Athena. It's been covered before how this is not a proper phone and I agree but with my Jabra BT8010 and LG Style-I (I have and use both) it works well enough for me. I'm more of a data user than a talker.

Of course, your mileage may vary...

[lpsi2000]

Yes, it is hard to leave the Athena especially when you are a custom to the screen and other aspects we take for granted. I tried the Tilt as well, and it was no match. In the end, I am still perfectly happy with the Athena until another big screen slimmer device with more capabilities.:)

[HeartOfDarkness]

Almost same here.

- Had a Universal -> happy;
- Universal dead, replaced with Hermes by operator -> *very* unhappy;
- Hermes eBayed, Athena bought -> happy.

Can't understand how people now how people can browse the web, play video and stuff on smallish QVGA screens. :-)

[apd]

Yes, it is hard to leave the Athena especially when you are a custom to the screen and other aspects we take for granted. I tried the Tilt as well, and it was no match. In the end, I am still perfectly happy with the Athena until another big screen slimmer device with more capabilities.:)

More capabilities - like being able to fly?? ;)

I agree with you and HeartofDarkness - the screen (and built-in GPS) make it invaluable. Now if only they would produce a version that didn't have the microdrive but just had a large solid state drive......

[yetdy]

Came from an atom. Did all you mentioned. Damaged my eyes in the process. Fortunately damage was temporary. I'm very happy with my athena. Heavy and big compared to the atom but for now, it works for me and I love it. :) Until a better PPC comes out, I don't think I will consider replacing it.

[leoni1980]

Things I would look for in a new device:

thinner but wider display to improve web browsing and enable a 'narrower' device. The only REAL thing I miss about the Athena is the big screen, but with a little design alteration the size could be more-or-less maintained without making the device as bulky as at present.

Slimmer profile, rounded at the edges and no keyboard. I think the look of the device is spoiled by the hardware keyboard and I much preferred to leave it at home and use Fingertouch.

Ability to use as a handset like the Iphone for when needed (bt works but some people don't like using bluetooth/wired headsets all of the time)

Full ATI chip support.

Vueflo improvements such as auto-rotation

FlashLite 3.0 to enable full embedded flash site support!


This is what i'll be looking for. I'm sure if HTC don't release a device like this someone will.

[eaglesteve]

Things I would look for in a new device:

thinner but wider display to improve web browsing and enable a 'narrower' device. The only REAL thing I miss about the Athena is the big screen, but with a little design alteration the size could be more-or-less maintained without making the device as bulky as at present.

Slimmer profile, rounded at the edges and no keyboard. I think the look of the device is spoiled by the hardware keyboard and I much preferred to leave it at home and use Fingertouch.

Ability to use as a handset like the Iphone for when needed (bt works but some people don't like using bluetooth/wired headsets all of the time)

Full ATI chip support.

Vueflo improvements such as auto-rotation

FlashLite 3.0 to enable full embedded flash site support!


This is what i'll be looking for. I'm sure if HTC don't release a device like this someone will.


Amen to all these.

Would just add what it should still be on winCE platform for the sake of software availability.

Also, camera taking indoor could improve.

Don't forget to replace microdrive with an SSD.

If possible, I prefer regular size SDHC. It's capacity seems to be always ahead of minisdhc and microsdhc.

But for now, Athena is still the only option meeting my needs most closely.

[toyfreak]

Despite what the cosmic feline has spewed all over xda (I hope he is banned indefinitely), I still consider the Athena a single-device solution since anything as easy to carry as a BT headset or Style-i is not burdensome as separate phone and PDA. I did the 2-device thing awhile back with an iPAQ 4705 and Nokia 6230b and I found myself without the PDA on too many occasions. Future onverged devices will mean fewer compromises than we have to make now but for now the Athena is as good as it gets and that's good enough for me. And as good as it gets has only gotten better with the AP team and xda input and development.

[leoni1980]

calm down now. let's be nice please, each to their own and all that......i use two devices at the moment as it suits my needs: am i an idiot?

[Pawel062]

the athena might get even better within a few days/weeks. im seeing if it could be a first device with something.... cant reveal what yet but oh well we'll see if it will be possible.

[eaglesteve]

Things I would look for in a new device:

thinner but wider display to improve web browsing and enable a 'narrower' device.

Leoni,

I've given more thought to the issue of aspect ratio.

I think that we should not go for a narrower screen. Narrower screen is suitable for portrait use. Also, most applications will not be able to use it properly. Think about the problems square screens are having. Also, think about your wide screen television playing most videos, which requires the image to be flattened in order to cover the entire screen, or having to leave the two sides margin unused.

I think the aspect ratio should just stick to the standard ones because of this.

Am I making sense?

[leoni1980]

Leoni,

I've given more thought to the issue of aspect ratio.

I think that we should not go for a narrower screen. Narrower screen is suitable for portrait use. Also, most applications will not be able to use it properly. Think about the problems square screens are having. Also, think about your wide screen television playing most videos, which requires the image to be flattened in order to cover the entire screen, or having to leave the two sides margin unused.

I think the aspect ratio should just stick to the standard ones because of this.

Am I making sense?



Narrower screen will suit movie playback better as it is more in fitting with the widescreen standards, whereas the Athena's aspect ration necessitates more cropping to fill the screen as it is quite square. 800*480 is becoming more common on pocket pc's and moble devices so I don't think compatibility will be any more of a problem than it is with VGA. Also web browsing will be significantly improved as there will only be a minimal need for horizontal scrolling. This in turn will make remote desktop and things such as Pocket Excel, Pocket Word and any other graphical/chart app look a lot better.


What do you think?

[eaglesteve]

Narrower screen will suit movie playback better as it is more in fitting with the widescreen standards, whereas the Athena's aspect ration necessitates more cropping to fill the screen as it is quite square. 800*480 is becoming more common on pocket pc's and moble devices so I don't think compatibility will be any more of a problem than it is with VGA. Also web browsing will be significantly improved as there will only be a minimal need for horizontal scrolling. This in turn will make remote desktop and things such as Pocket Excel, Pocket Word and any other graphical/chart app look a lot better.


What do you think?

It would be like what you see on television. Basically the extra space would not be used for many years until all movies are made in the new format. It would only happen if there is widespread adoption of wide screen TV.

Similarly, unless all PDA moves in the same direction, software vendor is not going to start coding their applications for wide screen just for a small market.

A long and narrow screen will also be unsuitable for portrait use.

I think with the 96 dpi, ability to see is not an issue with Athena's size and aspect ratio. With excel, one cannot completely eliminate need for horizontal scrolling. A narrower screen would give less visibility height wise, so I'm not sure that is better or not. But the key issue, as I mentioned, is the availability of software, which is not up to us, or the hardware vendor. To go wide and short screen is going against the de facto standard in the PDA industry, and would have to overcome too much problems to be worth it.

[leoni1980]

It would be like what you see on television. Basically the extra space would not be used for many years until all movies are made in the new format. It would only happen if there is widespread adoption of wide screen TV.

Similarly, unless all PDA moves in the same direction, software vendor is not going to start coding their applications for wide screen just for a small market.

A long and narrow screen will also be unsuitable for portrait use.

I think with the 96 dpi, ability to see is not an issue with Athena's size and aspect ratio. With excel, one cannot completely eliminate need for horizontal scrolling. A narrower screen would give less visibility height wise, so I'm not sure that is better or not. But the key issue, as I mentioned, is the availability of software, which is not up to us, or the hardware vendor. To go wide and short screen is going against the de facto standard in the PDA industry, and would have to overcome too much problems to be worth it.

There are already windows mobile devices with 800 by 480 screens. It would be interesting to see if there are any compatibiity issues versus standard VGA, however I doubt there are. The widescreen ratio here in britain is standard in all broadcasts of the last 3 years or so and is certainly standard in Movies, meaning that for movie and tv applications at least some of the Athena's screen height is wasted unless cropping the image. The 800 by 480 ratio is also more in keeping with the typical ratio of photography. Portrait orientation is not really an issue since the .480 resolution is the same as it would be on the Athena, though marginally scalled down in size. Overall there will be an improvement in screen real-estate and a more pocket-able device would be possible

[eaglesteve]

There are already windows mobile devices with 800 by 480 screens. It would be interesting to see if there are any compatibiity issues versus standard VGA, however I doubt there are. The widescreen ratio here in britain is standard in all broadcasts of the last 3 years or so and is certainly standard in Movies, meaning that for movie and tv applications at least some of the Athena's screen height is wasted unless cropping the image. The 800 by 480 ratio is also more in keeping with the typical ratio of photography. Portrait orientation is not really an issue since the .480 resolution is the same as it would be on the Athena, though marginally scalled down in size. Overall there will be an improvement in screen real-estate and a more pocket-able device would be possible


I'm not the expert on this area. I just know the square screen devices had problem running many normal software, and its just my educated guess, not based on any hard research, that it might encounter similar issues in another aspect ratio.

Someone with more knowledge might want to comment on this, as I feel that I'm begining to comment based on speculations now. I'd rather not do that.

Other than this concern, I think 800x480 would be great.


Cheers.

[techntrek]

Its a matter of choosing to stay with the past, or go with the future. In the past the 4:3 ratio was most common both for TV and computer monitor formats. Now with HD getting ready to become mainstream in many countries, the 16:9 ratio is becoming the new TV standard. Computer monitors are also quickly taking on that ratio with all the "widescreen" versions now on the market. I'm betting within 2 years 16:9 will be the definitive standard for TV and computers, especially since 4:3 content on a 16:9 screen is more useable than the reverse (watching a widescreen movie on a 4:3 screen sucks).

Now resolution is another matter, and some seem to be getting that mixed up with the physical dimention ratio. You can squish 800X480 on a 4:3 screen, or a 16:9 screen, you just need elongated pixels. Not that any company would do that, I'm just saying. So after going with 16:9, an appropriate resolution would have to go with it like 960x540.

I think the best form factor for the next version would be a 16:9 screen, which would elongate it somewhat and reduce the height. Not only would this allow for 4:3 and 16:9 content, it would make it easier to hold as a real phone (and then make sure it has a standard private earpiece so it can be used as a phone). By making it a little longer it should be able to be thinned out a little, too, since there would be more internal volume for components. Add vibrate and all the hold-outs will buy it - the ones that love every spec except the fact that its not quite a phone. The mass market won't buy it unless it has vibrate and a private earpiece. Adding the widescreen will appeal to the iphone crowd and many others looking for the next big thing.

Widescreen, a little thinner, a private earpiece and vibrate and HTC will have an instant hit.

[eaglesteve]

Its a matter of choosing to stay with the past, or go with the future. In the past the 4:3 ratio was most common both for TV and computer monitor formats. Now with HD getting ready to become mainstream in many countries, the 16:9 ratio is becoming the new TV standard. Computer monitors are also quickly taking on that ratio with all the "widescreen" versions now on the market. I'm betting within 2 years 16:9 will be the definitive standard for TV and computers, especially since 4:3 content on a 16:9 screen is more useable than the reverse.

Now resolution is another matter, and some seem to be getting that mixed up with the physical dimention ratio. You can squish 800X480 on a 4:3 screen, or a 16:9 screen, you just need elongated pixels.

I think the best form factor for the next version would be a 16:9 screen, which would elongate it somewhat and thin out the height. Not only would this allow for 4:3 and 16:9 content, it would make it easier to hold as a real phone (and then make sure it has a standard private earpiece so it can be used as a phone). By making it a little longer it should be able to be thinned out a little, too. Add vibrate and all the hold-outs will buy it - the ones that love every spec except the fact that its not quite a phone. The mass market won't buy it unless it has vibrate and a private earpiece. Adding the widescreen will appeal to the iphone crowd and many others looking for the next big thing.

Widescreen, a little thinner, a private earpiece and vibrate and HTC will have an instant hit.

Yes, indeed the longer but narrower phone will be easier to hold.

Do you reckon there will be problem running existing applications on 800x480 screen?

[techntrek]

I doubt it, although if they go 16:9 the resolution would have to be something like 960x540 or some other similar 16:9 format (I edited my post above to include this). Well-written applications like Word or GPS should already be built to handle any resolution. I know on desktop Windows any resolution change triggers a system event, which apps are supposed to monitor and adapt to. I assume since RealVGA requires a reboot Windows Mobile doesn't support resolution changes on the fly, but it should at least have an API to tell apps what the current resolution is when they first run, and most apps should already be built to adjust accordingly - there are just too many different screen sizes on the market for them not to.

[eaglesteve]

I doubt it, although if they go 16:9 the resolution would have to be something like 960x540 or some other similar 16:9 format (I edited my post above to include this). Well-written applications like Word or GPS should already be built to handle any resolution. I know on desktop Windows any resolution change triggers a system event, which apps are supposed to monitor and adapt to. I assume since RealVGA requires a reboot Windows Mobile doesn't support resolution changes on the fly, but it should at least have an API to tell apps what the current resolution is when they first run, and most apps should already be built to adjust accordingly - there are just too many different screen sizes on the market for them not to.

True, they cannot afford to not cater to all the different resolutions and aspect ratios. What I'm worried is what in reality many programs are written by lazy programmers who had not made their applications as smart as the likes of microsoft office. Games, for example. But, I'm hopeful that more and more people would become aware of the need to make their applications aspect ratio as wellas resolution aware.

Anyway, by the time we get our next device, wm7 should be out. Then, many developers might need to go through some adaptation. Who knows, wm7 may allows resolution change without the need to reset?

[toyfreak]

calm down now. let's be nice please, each to their own and all that......i use two devices at the moment as it suits my needs: am i an idiot?

@me? I am perfectly calm, damnit!!! (just kidding...) Anyone who carries 2 devices is fine with me; to each his or her own, it just didn't work for me. As for spacecat, he was always picking a fight and I grew weary of his drivel cluttering xda. He's entitled to his opinion as well but stepped over the line by attacking others. 'Nuff said.

[leoni1980]

Shame we don't know anyone with a toshiba portege g900: windows mobile 6 device with 800 by 480 resolution. The Nokia internet tablets also have the same resolution and it is nice to use on a small scale. It might not be quite the same ratio as 16:9 but is nonetheless better for viewing movies on than a square format display This video (http://www.stage6.com/user/misterleoni/video/1975066/n800-browser--Short-demo) of the N800 i did might give you an idea (it's an 800 by 480 display despite my description!). I think a lot of the bulk of the Athena could be cut out - I wonder what causes so much weight and thickness since the internals are comparable to the tilt, aside from the 8gb microdrive. I think a newer model could be thinned down substancially to appeal more to the mass market without sacrificing screen size and real-estate. A big barrier seems to be that HTC are loathed to embrace VGA, never mind higher resolutions.

Hitachi have released 2.9 inch 800 by 480 screens for mobile phones which herald a bright future and prove that the possibilities are endless.

[eaglesteve]

Shame we don't know anyone with a toshiba portege g900: windows mobile 6 device with 800 by 480 resolution. The Nokia internet tablets also have the same resolution and it is nice to use on a small scale. It might not be quite the same ratio as 16:9 but is nonetheless better for viewing movies on than a square format display This video (http://www.stage6.com/user/misterleoni/video/1975066/n800-browser--Short-demo) of the N800 i did might give you an idea (it's an 800 by 480 display despite my description!). I think a lot of the bulk of the Athena could be cut out - I wonder what causes so much weight and thickness since the internals are comparable to the tilt, aside from the 8gb microdrive. I think a newer model could be thinned down substancially to appeal more to the mass market without sacrificing screen size and real-estate. A big barrier seems to be that HTC are loathed to embrace VGA, never mind higher resolutions.

Hitachi have released 2.9 inch 800 by 480 screens for mobile phones which herald a bright future and prove that the possibilities are endless.

May be we can search for Toshiba Protege g900 user forum and get a sense of whether there is problem getting existing software to runm.

Hitachi's 2.9 inch is too small for me. I like a 5 inches still, although others may say it is too big, but it's just nice for me.

[AMoosa]

Hi All, I am an ex-Ameo user but found a little too bulky, so moved to the Kaiser, which is an excellent device with 3 major problems:

1 - the qvga screen which is too restrictive for browsing and emails
2 - the awful video playback due to the lack of drivers
3 - the lack of a CTRL key which is critical for efficient email and text composition - ctrl + arrow navigation to move the cursor a word at a time etc

So, I bought a Toshiba G900 which arrived 2 days ago - the screen resolution is great for emails and web, it has a CTRL key, the fingerprint reader is fantastic for unlocking the device, BUT there are 2 major problems:

1 - software compatibility due to the unusual screen resolution is very choppy especially with games
2 - the reception is very weak - the signal is always 1-2 bars and at work I get no signal at all.

So here I am looking for an Ameo again.

[eaglesteve]

Hi All, I am an ex-Ameo user but found a little too bulky, so moved to the Kaiser, which is an excellent device with 3 major problems:

1 - the qvga screen which is too restrictive for browsing and emails
2 - the awful video playback due to the lack of drivers
3 - the lack of a CTRL key which is critical for efficient email and text composition - ctrl + arrow navigation to move the cursor a word at a time etc

So, I bought a Toshiba G900 which arrived 2 days ago - the screen resolution is great for emails and web, it has a CTRL key, the fingerprint reader is fantastic for unlocking the device, BUT there are 2 major problems:

1 - software compatibility due to the unusual screen resolution is very choppy especially with games
2 - the reception is very weak - the signal is always 1-2 bars and at work I get no signal at all.

So here I am looking for an Ameo again.

Here you are, the g900 user we're looking for. You will be able to give us first hand insight into any software screen resolution related problem.

Please give us more details into the nature of the problems. This may require you to trial many many software before a meaningful conclusion can be reached. Please try both portrait and landscape.

If you don't mind, I'd PM you with a list of software for you to try out.

It's just two days and you want to switch back to Athena? I think you should give yourself more time to overcome the learning curve first. Also, from my selfish standpoint, I like you to give me more info on it.

Thanks for your timely post!

[eaglesteve]

The Toshiba Protege G900 forum is here:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=314433

I'll be combing through the post for info.:)

[AMoosa]

Eaglesteve, please PM me your list asap so I can test it all before I get rid of the g900.

[eaglesteve]

The Toshiba Protege G900 forum is here:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=314433

I'll be combing through the post for info.:)


Post #104
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Hi - I picked up my device last night and installed TomTom (6.03). It seems unable to cope with the screen as when in Landscape mode it renders the screen 2.5 times (like a tiled effect). I then get a 'Memory violation' when it tries to access any maps. In portrait mode I get a 'memory violation' as soon I launch the s/w.

Post #106
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tried pocketFrodo, and it only filled the VGA bit of the screen, leaving a horrible flickery mess on the other 1/5 of the screen

Post #112
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My Navigon Mobile Navigator 6 won't even start on the G900, worked fine on the Hermes, however Route 66 and Destinator 6 both work perfectly.


Post #137
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The browsing though is perfect with this resolution and most of the 3rd part. software developers allready made fixes to most of their software for the g900.



SUMMARY:

Looks like there were problems initially, but most major software vendors have made changes to their software to work on 800x480, so as of now it should not be a concern anymore.:)

[toyfreak]

This thread has headed off in an interesting direction. Can I re-title it? :)

Hopefully our Athenas will get proper video drivers soon... I'll put up a good chunk of my hard-earned pay when that day comes!

[eaglesteve]

Eaglesteve, please PM me your list asap so I can test it all before I get rid of the g900.

Just did. Thanks for your generous help. I really really appreciate having someone finding out for me if any of my favourite software is going to have problem running on a 800x480 screen.

Please stick around at this thread. You're a great asset.:cool:

[eaglesteve]

This thread has headed off in an interesting direction. Can I re-title it? :)

Hopefully our Athenas will get proper video drivers soon... I'll put up a good chunk of my hard-earned pay when that day comes!


Fantastic suggestion.

Here it is, lets continue discussing this fascinating issue here:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=362033

[toyfreak]

And add one thing to my wish list:

A removable "phone module" with private earpiece and microphone which docks with and is recharged by the main unit. It would be best if one could hold the whole thing up to the ear or optionally remove the module and talk with it (like the LG Style-I) if desired.

I think this has been suggested before; due credit to whomever had the idea first...

And, I have to admit I got my wife an iPhone for Christmas and the device is compelling. Please do not post iPhone vs. Athena; I only add this because the form factor is widescreen and the form factor works well. I could live with a WM device like that scaled up slightly to 5" diagonal with a hardware keyboard.

EDIT: Oops, sorry. Posted in wrong thread (had 2 browser windows open)