20080616> Can WM 6.1 have 64 MB Program Memory?

[ks1781]

Requests/suggestions please for WM 6.1 cookers considering their next release:

- 64 MB Program Memory

- Absolute bare skeleton WM 6.1

- essential candidates for removal:
> customer feedback
> windows live
> any windows help & support related bloatware
> error reporting
> search
> windows media player
> any animated items, icons, etc..
> junk items under \windows; unnecessary gif,jpg,bmp,png
etc, text files

- single boot screen, no splash, animations etc..
minimize WM 6.1 boot time

- removal of other misc bloatware, vaporware that are not
core to the function, speed and stability of WM 6.1



================================================== ====
To the site Administrators:
-------------------------

- can we initiate a donation bucket in which people may contribute
and pool donations?

- 1 month period (or other) in which donations can be collected and
cookers may submit their best releases

- the people (users) vote during the period on what they find to be
the most efficient, stable, fast, clean and best performing rom.

- at the end of the period the donation pool is distributed to the top 3
most voted cookers, e.g. 60%/25%/15% respectively.



================================================== ====
Suggestions, ideas, recommendations, criticism etc certainly
welcome.

Thanks to all
--kara

[yaka]

64M program memory mean No WM.

[ks1781]

why?
is there a maximum?

Thanks,

[brocils]

why?
is there a maximum?

Thanks,

you are really someone :))

Trinity have only 64MB build in , how come it have 64MB program memory ? DId you have brain ?

[ks1781]

--yes,

if the device has 64 MB SDRAM, why is it that most cooked roms
generally present approx. 50 MB of that?

is this a limitation or is missing 14 MB used for a special purpose?

Thanks for any advice.

[racerx_]

?? because it takes up space to install the operating system.. even a 'bare bones' operating system is still an operating system..

did you ever wonder why there's space missing from your hard drive after you install windows xp? ;)

[ks1781]

http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=470

Memory ROM: 128 MB
RAM: 64 MB SDRAM

What is the ROM 128 MB designated for?

Thanks for your patience with me.
--kara

[callmepaper]

if i understand him correctly, he is referring to the program memory i.e. RAM not ROM. the 128MB ROM is meant for installation of OS (WM) where the 64MB RAM is the execution power. we normally get ~20MB-25MB RAM free out of 64MB total. i believed the rest (64MB - 25MB) was used for other services once WM started.

[ks1781]

yes, that is what i'm trying to understand..

in this p3600 specification from HTC:
http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=470


it lists>

128 MB ROM
64 MB RAM




=================================================
for the 128 MB ROM
I assume the 128 MB ROM contains the OS installation, with
some component of this ROM hidden/reserved.
E.g. some cooked roms released have 'Big Storage'
~70 MB available to the user for NV storage
the remaining 58 MB comprises OS installation and a reserved
area.


=================================================
for the 64 MB RAM
This is the volatile memory available for the OS to boot & run, and
for program execution.
However, on most cooked roms I have used, under
Settings -> System -> Memory
'Program Total' is reported as ~50 MB.


So my question is - where is the remaining 14 MB RAM??

[joncgde2]

as dum as it sounds i've wondered about that too

even formatting issues aside (like how hard drive capacity is always lower than reported), 14MB seems like a lot to 'go missing'.

why doesnt WM even report it? because its being used by the system for services? so then why does it ALSO report itself using around 20MB of what's left?

that way, it's like 14 MB used (hidden) + approx. 20MB reported (shown) = approx. 34MB total? :/ hmm

[nealed]

So my question is - where is the remaining 14 MB RAM??

OK - You have a PC with 1GB of RAM say. Once say windows xp has booted up - your AV started etc. you probably have 684MB say of RAM left, so Where did the other 340MB of RAM go to?

Think about it.

[joncgde2]

wtf i still don't get it... dont be mad :(

i mean mine reports 2096236 KB... a full 2048MB of RAM

BUT of course 100-300 minimum will always be in use for the system itself



whereas in WM, it reports like 48MB total, AND say approx. 20MB in use

ok so the 20MB minimum in use will ALWAYS be in use because of windows mobile itself. FINE.

but why does it only represent 48MB as available?

and if that is the case, there's that missing unreported 12MB, PLUS that minimum 20MB always in use

that's what im curious about

[flaviopac]

Just think that Windows XP takes 250/300 mb of ram space....


:rolleyes:

PS: Please edit your title... Someone could understand that you really have a 64mb free ram rom......

[Andych]

wtf i still don't get it... dont be mad :(

i mean mine reports 2096236 KB... a full 2048MB of RAM

BUT of course 100-300 minimum will always be in use for the system itself



whereas in WM, it reports like 48MB total, AND say approx. 20MB in use

ok so the 20MB minimum in use will ALWAYS be in use because of windows mobile itself. FINE.

but why does it only represent 48MB as available?

and if that is the case, there's that missing unreported 12MB, PLUS that minimum 20MB always in use

that's what im curious about

Maybe it is for the Radio Rom etc...or maybe Microsoft are stealing Ram and stockpiling it....lol

[tetsuo55]

This is actually a valid question.

The system has 64MB of ram, some how 14MB of this ram is allocated away before the OS loads. This leaves 50MB of ram left for the OS, which uses about 20 MB and leaves 30 MB of ram for applications.

I think everyone understands this part.

The question is, what part of the phone is pre-allocating 14MB of ram.

My only guess is the videocard, if not that then it might be the pagefile.

[Andych]

This is actually a valid question.

The system has 64MB of ram, some how 14MB of this ram is allocated away before the OS loads. This leaves 50MB of ram left for the OS, which uses about 20 MB and leaves 30 MB of ram for applications.

I think everyone understands this part.

The question is, what part of the phone is pre-allocating 14MB of ram.

My only guess is the videocard, if not that then it might be the pagefile.


Does it really matter where it goes? Obviously if that memory hasn't been exploited yet by the excellent cookers etc in here....then it can't be of any benefit.

[ks1781]

I concur with tetsuo55.

The reasoning proposed by Andych and others still does not quite
correlate.

i.e. 64 = 14 (OS) + ~20 (progs) + ~30 free

the ~20 is supposedly attributed to basic progs,
e.g. phone, filesys, mail etc..

A listing of such process summates to approx. 8 MB total.
That still leaves 12 MB of unaccounted for basic function
and userland process consumption.

Regarding the ATI video chip, general investigation and
settings check of tcpmp would suggest at best it is a
4 MB chip (whether dedicated or shared)

I cant see the 'remaining ~14 MB' that I'm searching for
being used for paging. Paging is part of overall virtual memory,
and involves page outs/ins to a location on some type
of physical media. Additionally, with the usual ~ 30 MB
ram free, in the context of these devices, a swap requirement
is unlikely given the 'free' memory available.

Although 14 MB may seem peanuts compared to standard desktop
ram configurations today - with a p3600 + WM, recovering the
14 MB (if possible) would provide a much welcomed bonus to
the trinity.

--kara

[joncgde2]

ahh now we're onto something :D good work ks1781...

i fully agree with the need to just find out the answer to this... most likely it's something that will be perfectly explainable and make sense and we won't be able to do anything once we find out

but it sure would be nice to know

[joncgde2]

OK I have the 'answer' - straight from a Windows Mobile blog - I'll post it here cos it's all straight to the point and interesting (somewhat) :p Link is HERE (http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx)

The Page Pool
Applications use RAM in two ways. There is code that runs, and there is data that is created while it is running. On a NOR device, the code can run directly from the ROM and not be loaded into RAM first. This process is called XIP (eXecute In Place). NAND devices can't XIP, so their code is loaded into RAM and executed from there. If you don't have a Page Pool, this code is loaded into normal RAM. The Page Pool is a mechanism to limit how much code is loaded into normal RAM. With a Page Pool, we can unload code that hasn't been used in a while and reload it later if we need to. We can't do that without a Page Pool.

On a typical NAND-based WM5 device, the Page Pool is 4.5M.

The Radio Stack
Devices with a Cellular Radio have a complicated bunch of code to make their radios talk to cell towers. On some devices, the radio is a self-contained module with its own RAM and ROM. On others, the radio code is stored in the normal system flash. If so, it either needs to XIP, or it needs to be run in RAM. If it's run in RAM, that RAM is taken away from the system.

A typical radio stack takes 4M.

DMA Buffers
Some hardware can write directly into RAM without using the CPU to do it. This is called "Direct Memory Access" or DMA. DMA is very efficient and lets you get a lot more data transferred in the same amount of time, usually for less power. But it's best to set aside your DMA buffers before the system boots. This guarantees that they're there when you need them. PocketPCs have been doing this for a decade. But, back in the old days, the main use for DMA was audio capture. Audio data is small, so the DMA buffers are also small. Video, on the other hand, is big. More data requires bigger DMA buffers.

An OEM will tune the size of the pre-allocated DMA buffers based on what the device is intended to do. If the main goal is still photos, you can use a much smaller buffer. If the goal is recording video, it needs a much larger buffer. If the goal is video conferencing, it needs a bigger buffer still.

DMA buffers range in size between 300K and 6M. For a video capture device, it's likely to use around 4M.

XIPKernel
There are portions of the deepest parts of the OS that have to XIP. If you're on NOR, that code just XIPs like everything else. Not so on NAND. For a NAND system to boot, it needs to load this code into RAM first and then run it from there. When the system is running, it can't really tell if it's running from RAM or ROM, so it assumes it's running from ROM and doesn't count this space.

The XIPKernel region tends to be between 1.5 and 2M.

The Frame Buffer
There is a chunk of RAM set aside to hold everything that's on the screen. (If you want to know more about it, read this.) On most devices, every dot on the screen needs two bytes. A typical Pocket PC has 240x320 dots. That would be 300K. If you have a 640x480 screen, it's 600K. Sometimes, for performance reasons, devices will have two frame buffers. So this could take up to 1.2M.

[ks1781]

Thanks joncgde2 - good find which provides a sufficient explanation as to the 'hidden' 14 MB.

There is still another question.
WM reports ~24 MB in use (per earlier screen captures) - where 'in use'
is attributed to running applications.

Checking a process listing via task manager shows the total
apparent RAM in use by these 'running applications' to be ~8 MB.

Can anyone provide an explanation to account for the
remaining ~16 MB??

[idrisito]

as somebody already mentioned the radio rom is 16MB! plust IPLS SPL would account for ~20 MB

[corfou]

Some rough calculations:

IPL,SPL,Splash Screen ~ 3M
ROM Files ~ 50M
Radio ROM ~ 8M
Page Pool ~ 4M
Extended ROM ~ 10M
User Storage ~ 53M
----------------------------
Storage = 128M Flash

Memory for OS ~ 17M
User Memory ~ 49M
---------------------------
Memory ~ 64M

[a-rinat]

- essential candidates for removal:
> windows media player

WMP could not be removed, becaused its function is playing ringtone during incall