The Bible

[-PiLoT-]

Has anyone ever read it fully understood yet not be religious in anyway

[zocster]

Has anyone ever read it fully understood yet not be religious in anyway

yep pretty much but it is pretty hard to apply in real life! I would like to know someone that was not on Oprah and had successfully applied those 'teachings' in real life. :D

[Kafro]

The events shown in the bible hasn't even been proven, there are no hard evidents that those "events" even occurred through history.

[datacrime]

I believe in a lot of things told and taught in the Bible but I also believe that there has been a lot of things added that are not true. Also I wish that It had never been changed so we could actually know the truth from when it was written.... I am not sure why there is always a new version or new testament. Also have you guys seen Zeitgiest? Although I disagree with some points it does raise some good points which are logical.

Also there is an EXCELLENT book called "Christiannity: A journey from fact to fiction" which you can read for free online.

[JimmyMcGee]

Consider this the only warning for this thread. If it gets even slightly out of hand or inflammatory Bans will be given and the thread will be locked.

Otherwise have a nice discussion.

[shanetheclassic]

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[Joezhang]

The bible is largely a book of stories and moral guidance, it's not intended to be taken literally, and if you try, then you have to face the fact that it doesn't match up to recorded history and the scientific laws of the universe.

[swaney]

u can understand it if u have the traditional version.. cuz its very hard with the king james version.. but i think its about wat happened and wat will happen.. ps i didnt try to be religious

[burgertime]

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and had to read the bible front to back many times when I was a teenager (I have read 3 different bibles front to back; KJV, NWT, ASV). I would call myself agnostic and can enjoy some of the NT on a sole spiritual level, I like the whole concept of unconditional love. I however don't agree with some of the epistle such as Timothy because of their very sexist view of women.

Check out John Shelby Spong he is one of my favorite theologians. He has a very interesting concept on Christianity.

[kingabraham3]

Consider this the only warning for this thread. If it gets even slightly out of hand or inflammatory Bans will be given and the thread will be locked.

Otherwise have a nice discussion.
boy, you sure know how to take all the fun out of a religious debate! chairs flying, fists swinging, and mouths running off so bad Vince Vaughn would have to put on earmuffs (Old School), that's the only way I know how.:D

I believe in a lot of things told and taught in the Bible but I also believe that there has been a lot of things added that are not true. Also I wish that It had never been changed so we could actually know the truth from when it was written.... I am not sure why there is always a new version or new testament. Also have you guys seen Zeitgiest? Although I disagree with some points it does raise some good points which are logical.

Also there is an EXCELLENT book called "Christiannity: A journey from fact to fiction" which you can read for free online.
that is the excuse given (band-aid applied) to the increasingly ancient book known as the bible. The more modern civilization gets, the more we realize the bible's author wasn't god. It's quite understandable anyway, if I tried to write a bible of my own now, it would reflect all of the prevailing beliefs and scientific data of today. Fast forward two thousand years, say, about half of the things i wrote would make no sense in light of new discovery, and the other half could potentially be taken literally. Believers in my book, in order to maintain the infallibly of it, would be forced to say that the incorrect/incoherent parts were added on afterwards by mischievous hoodlums. It's similar to Orwell's 1984, where the truth is not based on some objective facts (i.e. history or the bible) but rather it is subjectively decided and controlled by those in power (Party members or priests).

Anyway, I hope I not offended anyone (so I don't get banned), although normally, I am not quite this tame (I place much credence in the first chapter of Dawkins' "The God Delusion," please read).

[burgertime]

I think the problem is that Jay asked a bit of a loaded question right out of the gate. The bible is different things to different people. The way I understand isn't the way a atheist understands it, isn't the way a Christian understands it etc..etc.

The better question is do you mean "understand" in a purely scholarly way?

[-PiLoT-]

morning burgertime

i meant has anyone read the bible and fully understood it, while no being religious. ie are you athiest and read the bible im just curious as to how many havent read the bible

like the guy two messages ago says the more modern civilisation get you realise the author wasnt god

i think we all knew that as moses and all others wrote it and centurys have edited it, all i wsas asking is have any none religious bible read and understood the bible

im reading kjv and understand it fine

i wasnt wanting a debate as such just a curiosity and a guess at how many non beleivers blast bible ethics and religion but have never read them in person

[burgertime]

Oh ok, in that case then yes. I prefer either the ASV or the NIV for ease of reading.

[kingabraham3]

answer to question is: yes.
i am extremely well versed in the bible (straight from the original hebrew text, and also quite knowledgeable is ancient jewish bible commentators), and no, i don't believe a word of it. i do not know much about the new testament however.

[Black93300ZX]

I've tried reading the bible... No better way to fall asleep. I felt like I was reading a dictionary, no interest or belief whatsoever. Not meant to offend anyone, but I really could never see myself reading it front to back knowing I would never use any of it.

[burgertime]

answer to question is: yes.
i am extremely well versed in the bible (straight from the original hebrew text, and also quite knowledgeable is ancient jewish bible commentators), and no, i don't believe a word of it. i do not know much about the new testament however.

Have you ever heard the theories about the story of Jonah being a way for the old testament to seagway into the new testament? That sort of stuff fascinates me, how they had to explain away the difference in the God of the OT and the God of the NT.

[souljah777]

This is an interesting debate. I have read the Bible several times and understand more each time I read it. The Bible teaches that understanding comes from God which some might see as a cop out but I truly understand much more now as a Christian than I did before. I pray for understanding before and after I read and no matter how many times I re-read a portion, I almost always see more. As for the Bible being either fictional or unprovable, this is a narrow view put out mostly by those who have done little true investigation. There are many respected scientists and historians who do not doubt the legitimacy of what the Bible says. For examples, Google "Answers in Genesis".

I think the bottom line is that "faith" is a belief in something for which we don't necessarily have complete proof. In the case of Christianity, it's also a belief in the supernatural, a thing that many non-Christians have no problem with (astrology, tarot cards etc.). At the end of the day, if what I believe is wrong, it makes no difference, if it's true......

[Black93300ZX]

Honestly, I envy those who can be religious... It seems like it would be a good feeling, that someone's watching over you, that things happen for a reason, and that through the tough times there's more out there. I think it's great that it brings communities together to churches for not only masses, but I've seen many churches act like more of a community center than anything. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's in the way my mind works or the way I was raised, I just can't seem to hold onto 1 religion as being true... I just go my own way, I'm not sure if I believe there's a God out there, but I feel if there is he must be gracious enough to understand my confusion. As stupid as it sounds, I still pray, and I hope someday I can find the religion that really leads to my true beliefs... I just haven't pieced it together yet.

[shanetheclassic]

www.zeitgeistmovie.com (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com)

[andrew-in-woking]

Hi all,

I am a committed Christian so I can't fully answer the question. However, my journey to faith did begin with the Bible. At the age of 13 I was made to read the Bible, specifically the sermon on the mount and Jesus' teaching in the Gospels, by a particularly keen "Scripture" teacher. While I didn't really "understand" what I was reading, when I read it something in me just clicked. It was like I had always known it was true. Strange I know. I decided that I believed in it and from there went on to become and call myself a Christian, found a church, etc. I am now 30 and still believe. I recently went to a church in Medford, Oregon where they have been having a healing revival. I saw several pretty undeniable miracles (short arms and legs growing, bones changing shape, etc.) with my own eyes. That doesn't say anything about the Bible I know but I think it demonstrates that there is a fundamental difference between understanding and belief. Many of the significant experiences I have had both reading the Bible and through my practice of the Christian faith fly in the face of my understanding.

On a more down to earth level, I think that much of what is written in the Bible only makes sense if you have a foundational belief anyway. When Jesus talked about the plank in people's eye (Matthew 7:3), he was talking about their sin against God, which is largely invisible here on Earth. If you take God out of the picture, what does the plank represent?

[burgertime]

Hmm Andrew as for the plank I am not so sure you have to have some belief in a high being for that passage to make sense. In a Jewish context he was probably speaking of Pharisees judging regular folk for minor infringements against the old law covenant while ignoring the basis of the law which was love. This was a common problem that Jewish believers evidently felt was very common amongst higher ranking Jews.

However even not knowing any of the history the context can clearly be seen as simply a proverb to not be a hypocrite. We all point out the misgivings of others while wanting to ignore our own. I think even Richard Dawkins agrees with that sentiment.

[kingabraham3]

Have you ever heard the theories about the story of Jonah being a way for the old testament to seagway into the new testament? That sort of stuff fascinates me, how they had to explain away the difference in the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
no i have not, but even Christians don't usually argue that the old testament was written with the new one in mind, its usually (as far as I know) more of a spontaneous, "Jews aren't behaving, so lets find another group...", but hey, I could be wrong.
As far as differences in god, I give much credence to the Redactor Theory, which argues no less that four authors for the old testament, let alone the new one. If you have many authors, than you will have certainly have many views/impressions/ideas about god. Of course this supports the idea that there is no god, and that all purported knowledge of such an entity is merely subjective hallucinatory speculations.
This is an interesting debate. I have read the Bible several times and understand more each time I read it. The Bible teaches that understanding comes from God which some might see as a cop out but I truly understand much more now as a Christian than I did before. I pray for understanding before and after I read and no matter how many times I re-read a portion, I almost always see more. As for the Bible being either fictional or unprovable, this is a narrow view put out mostly by those who have done little true investigation. There are many respected scientists and historians who do not doubt the legitimacy of what the Bible says. For examples, Google "Answers in Genesis".

I think the bottom line is that "faith" is a belief in something for which we don't necessarily have complete proof. In the case of Christianity, it's also a belief in the supernatural, a thing that many non-Christians have no problem with (astrology, tarot cards etc.). At the end of the day, if what I believe is wrong, it makes no difference, if it's true......
1) the argument is not whether or not th bible is unprovable, that has been long established, hence the term we call "faith", which you yourself subscribe to. The argument is whether or not the bible is disprovable, which i certainly think to be the case. Thats when "faith" really kicks is...
2) regarding faith, faith is simply the belief of the unproven, for which there is no sensible reason for such belief. It is not, in my view, something to be proud of, rather something to be embarrassed about. Any adult who has faith enough to belief in the tooth fairy (which has not been entirely yet disproven)would be quite embarrassed and would not parade his views around or insisting they be taught to children in public schools or mounted up in public court houses.
3) Your last bit, Pascal's Wager, is a fallacious argument. It commits the fallacy of False Dilemma by postulating that the only two options are to either believe in Jesus or to not believe at all. Yet any Muslim, Hindu, or Jew could present you with the same argument and it would be no less "valid."
Honestly, I envy those who can be religious... It seems like it would be a good feeling, that someone's watching over you, that things happen for a reason, and that through the tough times there's more out there. I think it's great that it brings communities together to churches for not only masses, but I've seen many churches act like more of a community center than anything. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's in the way my mind works or the way I was raised, I just can't seem to hold onto 1 religion as being true... I just go my own way, I'm not sure if I believe there's a God out there, but I feel if there is he must be gracious enough to understand my confusion. As stupid as it sounds, I still pray, and I hope someday I can find the religion that really leads to my true beliefs... I just haven't pieced it together yet.
1) Maybe you should go to prison, there's always someone watching you there (or you can come live in my dorm, no fun either...)
2) As George Carlin says, "religion is great, you can go to church every sunday to compare clothing!" (paraphrased).

[Black93300ZX]

Hmm, maybe someday I will be going to prison, but not because I want someone watching me.

[Zoltair Wright]

I'm an Atheist, but I've read chunks of the Bible either out of curiosity or boredom. It runs from poetically interesting (Genesis) to outright strange (Revelations). My favorite bits are the racy ones... like the part where Lot sleeps with BOTH his daughters! :eek: "Family values," indeed. (Yes, I know they got him drunk first. It still counts.)

More seriously, reading it is interesting because sometimes the reasoning of the characters is incomprehensible. I think it illustrates the pre-modern authorship of the text. That's not to knock it at all, it's just striking how different attitudes were when it was written. Like when Abraham unquestioningly hurries off to kill his son Isaac; few today would carry out their faith with that sort of blind devotion.

One part of the Bible that's actually difficult for me to read is the story of the Tower of Babel. Is there another interpretation besides that God hates his creation Man, and wishes to keep him subservient?

[graey]

I'm an Atheist, but I've read chunks of the Bible either out of curiosity or boredom. It runs from poetically interesting (Genesis) to outright strange (Revelations). My favorite bits are the racy ones... like the part where Lot sleeps with BOTH his daughters! :eek: "Family values," indeed. (Yes, I know they got him drunk first. It still counts.)

More seriously, reading it is interesting because sometimes the reasoning of the characters is incomprehensible. I think it illustrates the pre-modern authorship of the text. That's not to knock it at all, it's just striking how different attitudes were when it was written. Like when Abraham unquestioningly hurries off to kill his son Isaac; few today would carry out their faith with that sort of blind devotion.

One part of the Bible that's actually difficult for me to read is the story of the Tower of Babel. Is there another interpretation besides that God hates his creation Man, and wishes to keep him subservient?
Actually there's more to each passage you talk about then you say, you kind of rip it out of it's context.
Secondly, there is another interpretation, being that God saw his creation become more and more arrogant, thinking that they didn't need God (while in reality they did), and he would let them know they did. A kind of punishment more than a kind of last attempt to keep his creation subservient.

[Zoltair Wright]

You're right, I'm being a little glib. But on the other hand, I'm not really inaccurate, either. All of those thing happen in the Bible, and even weirder stuff, too. There's that other story where God commends a widow for dressing up as a prostitute in order to seduce her brother-in-law. (Yes, there's much more context for that one, too, but it sounds much more interesting my way.) My point isn't that the Bible is a dirty book, but that if you read it carefully, its example for ethical behavior is very different from what one would expect.

As to the story of Babel... yes, your interpretation is the conventional one, and I've heard it before. The problem I've always had with it is that it's written from God's point of view. That you add "(while in reality they did)" is sort of footnoting the story with God's opinion. But really, at that point, why did we need God? The Tower of Babel was about to reach all the way to heaven, at which we could have strolled up to the pearly gates at our leisure. What need have we for gods if we can become them ourselves? And if we weren't a threat, why did God destroy our tower? If the Lord was really all-powerful, we could have built all the towers we wanted and it wouldn't have mattered. To me, the Babel story is interesting because it shows Him as afraid of us.

[burgertime]

kingabraham3
Senior Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 248



1) the argument is not whether or not th bible is unprovable, that has been long established, hence the term we call "faith", which you yourself subscribe to. The argument is whether or not the bible is disprovable, which i certainly think to be the case. Thats when "faith" really kicks is...
2) regarding faith, faith is simply the belief of the unproven, for which there is no sensible reason for such belief. It is not, in my view, something to be proud of, rather something to be embarrassed about. Any adult who has faith enough to belief in the tooth fairy (which has not been entirely yet disproven)would be quite embarrassed and would not parade his views around or insisting they be taught to children in public schools or mounted up in public court houses.
3) Your last bit, Pascal's Wager, is a fallacious argument. It commits the fallacy of False Dilemma by postulating that the only two options are to either believe in Jesus or to not believe at all. Yet any Muslim, Hindu, or Jew could present you with the same argument and it would be no less "valid."


CAREFUL! Your about to invoke cognitive dissonance! Again I really like the theology of John Shelby Spoong, even though Atheist and Scientific minds alike probably would view him as more status quo he believes the bible is just a book to perpetuate tribal doctrine. He thinks that Jesus was created to explain "perfect" love but he never was raised from the ground and never performed miracles. So basically he thinks that everyone should just love each other.

[burgertime]

You're right, I'm being a little glib. But on the other hand, I'm not really inaccurate, either. All of those thing happen in the Bible, and even weirder stuff, too. There's that other story where God commends a widow for dressing up as a prostitute in order to seduce her brother-in-law. (Yes, there's much more context for that one, too, but it sounds much more interesting my way.) My point isn't that the Bible is a dirty book, but that if you read it carefully, its example for ethical behavior is very different from what one would expect.

As to the story of Babel... yes, your interpretation is the conventional one, and I've heard it before. The problem I've always had with it is that it's written from God's point of view. That you add "(while in reality they did)" is sort of footnoting the story with God's opinion. But really, at that point, why did we need God? The Tower of Babel was about to reach all the way to heaven, at which we could have strolled up to the pearly gates at our leisure. What need have we for gods if we can become them ourselves? And if we weren't a threat, why did God destroy our tower? If the Lord was really all-powerful, we could have built all the towers we wanted and it wouldn't have mattered. To me, the Babel story is interesting because it shows Him as afraid of us.


Again you are getting in to the territory where Cognitive Dissonance will start to kick in with hardened believers on here and the reaction will probably be very negative.

I have gotten into many arguments with my Mom about stuff like this. What does it matter if sections of the bible can be disproven? If your faith can move a mountain why can it be shattered by one story being off? Just admit it's highly unlikely and move on. Of course when one crack shows there is the fear that the wall comes tumbling down I suppose.

[telegraph0000]

God did not destroy the tower. Going back to the beginning, God's command to Adam and Eve was to "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it" (Gen 1:28)--implying procriation and separation (to inhabit the whole). At a certain point, their offspring traveled eastward and came accross a plain, began baking bricks, then stated "Come on! Let us build ourselves a city...and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth." (Gen 11:1-4) Hence, God confuses their language, "and they gradually left off building their city". (Gen ll:8)
Overall, the bible is a book of prophecy all leading to the vindication of God's sovereingty. There have been 3 charges made:
1.God is a liar (Gen 3:1-5)
2.Humans do not need God
3.Humans are selfish and only serve God when things are good (Job 1:7-12)

God will answer them (as he did with Job's example) in his own due time.

[riz157]

wow great thread...interesting views.

If I may ask couple of questions to
Do you care if God did send down Revelation thro His Prophets?
Suppose for a moment there is a "Day of Reckoning" (the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil.) would you care?

[burgertime]

I guess it would be hard to claim you wouldn't care if some magic hand came out of the sky to judge your soul.

[telegraph0000]

2 tim 3:16-ALL scripture is inspired by God-God has used his prophets throughout the ages as mouthpieces to pronounce vindications and his will (John 3:16,Ezekiel 33:11). He's the Almighty for goodness sake, he could make rocks prophesy if he felt it necessary(Luke 19:40). You asked about caring about 'Harmageddon' (God's holy war). Most people are ignorant regarding this momentous event-here's (yet again) the cliffnotes version:
1-Rev 6 1-17-Opening of 6 scrolls, each proclaiming doom to false religion and human governments.
2-Rev 12:7-17-Satan ousted from heaven to earth by Michael/Jesus (Woe to the earth,because the Devil has come down to you)
3-Rev 14:8-12,Rev 18:1,2-Babylon the Great (Empire of false religion) falls
4-People warned to get out of her so as not to share in her sins (essentially, repent and worship the only true God (Ps 83:18).
5-Rev 20:1-10-Jesus imprisons Satan and his demons for 1,000 years. During that time, Jesus (now king) and 144,000 spirit anointed humans now in heaven (That's right, only 144,000 are going to heaven-talk to John the Baptist and see how he feels not being one of them! (Matthew 11:11) have now the commission to bring humans to Edenic perfection (since there is no Satanic influence).
6-Rev 20:7-10-Satan let out one more time to prove his case-Many will still follow him "The number of these as the sand of the sea". That is when Satan, his demons and those who followed will be thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur.
7-Rev 20:14,15-Death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire-Faithful humans gain everlasting life.

The end. (Read Revelation, I'm doing John (the apostle) no justice-and it's not all gloom)

Now, God could have avoided this straight from the beginning-destroying Adam, Eve and Satan, but what would that have proven?
Myriads of angels looking on, listening to Satan's accusations. Could be likened to a teacher showing a class how to solve a complicated Math eguation-and a student stating that the teacher's way was wrong and that he had a better way. What would the class think if the teacher kicked that student out? That perhaps he was right? What would happen if the student was given a chance to prove the teacher wrong, and eventually fail? The class would then see that the teacher's way was the only means to solve the problem--now you put 2 and 2 together.

[Zoltair Wright]

God did not destroy the tower...

Huh, you're right. Thanks, that'll teach me to read more carefully.

God will answer them (as he did with Job's example) in his own due time.

He's sure taking a lot of time to think about it, isn't he?

Do you care if God did send down Revelation thro His Prophets? Suppose for a moment there is a "Day of Reckoning" ... would you care?

Not really. If God wants to judge me, go ahead. I maintain that without the ability to disagree with Him, the concept of "free will" is meaningless.

[burgertime]

2 tim 3:16-ALL scripture is inspired by God-God has used his prophets throughout the ages as mouthpieces to pronounce vindications and his will (John 3:16,Ezekiel 33:11). He's the Almighty for goodness sake, he could make rocks prophesy if he felt it necessary(Luke 19:40). You asked about caring about 'Harmageddon' (God's holy war). Most people are ignorant regarding this momentous event-here's (yet again) the cliffnotes version:
1-Rev 6 1-17-Opening of 6 scrolls, each proclaiming doom to false religion and human governments.
2-Rev 12:7-17-Satan ousted from heaven to earth by Michael/Jesus (Woe to the earth,because the Devil has come down to you)
3-Rev 14:8-12,Rev 18:1,2-Babylon the Great (Empire of false religion) falls
4-People warned to get out of her so as not to share in her sins (essentially, repent and worship the only true God (Ps 83:18).
5-Rev 20:1-10-Jesus imprisons Satan and his demons for 1,000 years. During that time, Jesus (now king) and 144,000 spirit anointed humans now in heaven (That's right, only 144,000 are going to heaven-talk to John the Baptist and see how he feels not being one of them! (Matthew 11:11) have now the commission to bring humans to Edenic perfection (since there is no Satanic influence).
6-Rev 20:7-10-Satan let out one more time to prove his case-Many will still follow him "The number of these as the sand of the sea". That is when Satan, his demons and those who followed will be thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur.
7-Rev 20:14,15-Death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire-Faithful humans gain everlasting life.

The end. (Read Revelation, I'm doing John (the apostle) no justice-and it's not all gloom)

Now, God could have avoided this straight from the beginning-destroying Adam, Eve and Satan, but what would that have proven?
Myriads of angels looking on, listening to Satan's accusations. Could be likened to a teacher showing a class how to solve a complicated Math eguation-and a student stating that the teacher's way was wrong and that he had a better way. What would the class think if the teacher kicked that student out? That perhaps he was right? What would happen if the student was given a chance to prove the teacher wrong, and eventually fail? The class would then see that the teacher's way was the only means to solve the problem--now you put 2 and 2 together.


As was stated from the MOD and the original posting this was not meant to be a debate.

Also your using numerous logical fallacies to "prove" whatever it is your trying to prove. No scripture matters if your directing at someone who does not believe in the scripture. Just because you believe it to be does not make it so.

[todd737]

Zeitgeist's middle section is amazing.

I was raised Roman Catholic and even made it through Catholic (though I was kicked out for asking about the children being raped when the local Bishop came to visit.) school and have read both the King James Version (from 1850 and made out of HEMP) which was awesome, contained all the old-school words like "breasts" unlike the New International Version which was edited to replace the word "breast" with "kisses"; go look it up, I think the Song of Solomon is about collecting psychedelic mushrooms for Sunday mass.

I also think in Genesis God is talking about the Cannabis plant being the green herb and I also think that the last page in Revelations references Cannabis as the tree of life: "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits (the many ways that they used Cannabis for Hemp; cloth, paper, medicine, lamp oil, paints, making bibles, etc...) , and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

Though I have read the Bible I am an atheist except when I am high, then I am agnostic.

Even though I posted in this thread I want to go on record to say that sincerely wish all threads on religion were automatically deleted to make more room on the servers for what we are all here for: HTC PDA's & Smartphones.

[rizwan157]

Zoltair right

unfortunately there are a lot of misguided people out there who misinform people about the reality of God and His Message. the message which should bring people clser to God instead drives them away. I'm not saying the Bible we have infront of us today is the very same message which was revealed by God to His Prophets. On the contrary Man has been interfering to deny this is to deny the obvious.
You mention the will of man, this is a God given right to everyone, one can choose his/her path as they will. However there are consquences for every choice made. What are the consquences well this is one of the reasons why God sent Prophets to inform man what he knew not.

[rizwan157]

I guess it would be hard to claim you wouldn't care if some magic hand came out of the sky to judge your soul.

burgertime
that is good to know you are a man of reason.
if I may ask y a man comes to you warning you of terrible day to come would you listen?

[rizwan157]

sometimes we go to the wrong people with the right question This is liken to a sick man going to a ironmonger for advice on medicene. This happens more often then we relise.
thisis one of the reasons why there is so much confusion about God and His Message. I also believe someone who truly is in search for the truth will find it sometimes from the most unlikely of sources.
I remember reading advice from a very intelligent and enlightened man "accept truth and justice even if they come from a stanger , or even you regard someone as despicable, and refute falsehood even if it comes from a sibling you love"

[burgertime]

burgertime
that is good to know you are a man of reason.
if I may ask y a man comes to you warning you of terrible day to come would you listen?


Funny growing up as a Jehovah's Witness I used to go to peoples door warning them a terrible day would come. Sure I would listen then ask him why he thinks this, what proof does he offer that indeed a terrible day will come. If he were Christian I could probably explain to him why trying to scare people into listening to him goes against his faith. If he were another religion I might tell him to come back after I have researched what he told me. If he were a Scientologist I would slam the door right in his face and tell him to "leave and never come back or I will call the police".

[graey]

Huh, you're right. Thanks, that'll teach me to read more carefully.



He's sure taking a lot of time to think about it, isn't he?



Not really. If God wants to judge me, go ahead. I maintain that without the ability to disagree with Him, the concept of "free will" is meaningless.
Oh, but you can disagree allright, it's just unlikely for you to disagree.
Imagine an ant standing on a piece of stone. Now, this ant (unlike most) is intelligent enough to learn advanced, has had many chances to get off the stone, but hasn't. Now the time has come to move the stone (the stone's got to be moved), and the ant is still on it. The stone is moved, the ant will certainly not be happy with it, but even though he theoretically could disagree in this example, it would be unlikely as he knew he had many chances.
If we are to be the ant, and we have had our chances at giving it a try with God, and we haven't or we haven't fully, it's hard for us to disagree when God says 'I came up to you, but you didn't feel like coming along.'. And as is written somewhere (I'll look it up if you want) God will turn away from you if you decide to turn your back to God.
Not meant to be any threat on my side, just my 2 cents on your thoughts about disagreeing and free will...

[telegraph0000]

Funny growing up as a Jehovah's Witness I used to go to peoples door warning them a terrible day would come. Sure I would listen then ask him why he thinks this, what proof does he offer that indeed a terrible day will come. If he were Christian I could probably explain to him why trying to scare people into listening to him goes against his faith. If he were another religion I might tell him to come back after I have researched what he told me. If he were a Scientologist I would slam the door right in his face and tell him to "leave and never come back or I will call the police".


"Growing up"...as in no longer?

[burgertime]

Your thinking of Matthew 25:31-46 and your taking it completely out of context. It was those who showed a lack of love that were turned away from.

Perhaps it would be someone like Zoltair who made it if God were to judge? That is what this scripture is pointing out.

[rizwan157]

burgertime

you certainly have the nerve to refute falsehood even if it comes from a loved or near one...but have you the courage to accept the truth from a stranger?

[burgertime]

What is truth Rizwan...even the bible says that we are to seek out truth..not to just take someones word for it (Acts 17:11). Yes I would accept truth, but only if it were true. I would never take it at face value.

[burgertime]

"Growing up"...as in no longer?


Yes I am no longer one. I can't agree with their interpretation of "truth".

[rizwan157]

What is truth Rizwan...even the bible says that we are to seek out truth..not to just take someones word for it (Acts 17:11). Yes I would accept truth, but only if it were true. I would never take it at face value.

beautifully stated so let us begin our journey and see where it leads us and I hope when the moment arrives you are true to your word. In the Name of God.

this is my email r_raj@hotmail.com

[burgertime]

The Email address you supplied does not work.

[derekwilkinson]

I think trying to "explain" God or say what he is "doing" is useless. I don't believe God can be explained. To people who don't believe the Bible, I don't think all of it should not be believed. Much of it can be very useful in your life.

[rizwan157]

The Email address you supplied does not work.

I do aplogies it should be r_raj@hotmail.co.uk

[Vosberg1]

You know, i would really like to go full into what i feel, i am an Apostlic/Pentecostal, but i am being kind (both to not offend, and get banned) But i take the bible as truth, and reading threw the posts on this forum, there is alot of post that kinda ask the same question that Polit (sp) asked Jesus before Golgotha. What is truth?

Truth, in breif, is more than just professing, but is everything allinging correct. (As John said, no lie is of the truth), so, with that said, if there is a doctrine that does not align itself COMPLEATLY with what the word of God says, then it is not truth.

I will just leave it at this, to those that want to know what truth is, read the ending of Matt, Mark, Luke, and read John 3.1-5, Acts 1 and 2, Acts 8, Acts 10 (near the end of Acts 10...) and Acts 19. Read Heb 2.4, Deut 6.4, John 14, And those should get you started.

As i have heard it said,

G' Day!

[burgertime]

Ah, but the truth is different to different people. In the bible Jesus said narrow and cramped is the road to life. This is where I have an issue with a lot of churches. They claim to lay out a path for you. If you just follow this and read that then you will be saved. However wouldn't that be the easy road to take?

It's more difficult to accept people for who they are and not what they could be. It's also a harder road to walk making decisions based on what you feel then what someone tells you. I think that is what the NT pushes for. Freedom in making your own choice with out harming someone else while also accepting their choice.

[rhov23]

Hi all,

I am a committed Christian so I can't fully answer the question. However, my journey to faith did begin with the Bible. At the age of 13 I was made to read the Bible, specifically the sermon on the mount and Jesus' teaching in the Gospels, by a particularly keen "Scripture" teacher. While I didn't really "understand" what I was reading, when I read it something in me just clicked. It was like I had always known it was true. Strange I know. I decided that I believed in it and from there went on to become and call myself a Christian, found a church, etc. I am now 30 and still believe. I recently went to a church in Medford, Oregon where they have been having a healing revival. I saw several pretty undeniable miracles (short arms and legs growing, bones changing shape, etc.) with my own eyes. That doesn't say anything about the Bible I know but I think it demonstrates that there is a fundamental difference between understanding and belief. Many of the significant experiences I have had both reading the Bible and through my practice of the Christian faith fly in the face of my understanding.

On a more down to earth level, I think that much of what is written in the Bible only makes sense if you have a foundational belief anyway. When Jesus talked about the plank in people's eye (Matthew 7:3), he was talking about their sin against God, which is largely invisible here on Earth. If you take God out of the picture, what does the plank represent?

I would like to find that button! :)

[MAZAR SCIENTIST]

sry friends but wat makes bible hard to be applied?
i'm muslim and our holy book is quran and we apply it all on our life
and we read it 3 or 4 times per month
thx for reading