Advantage Not Fit for Purpose.

[losdelrock]

Hello, I have lodged a complaint and asked HTC to email me the fact that the X7510 is not fit for purpose.

Let me elaborate. I administer a Microsoft SBS 2003 server. My user/owner of the company asked me to research a mobile device which would synchronise all his Exchange/My Documents items. The HTC X7510 seemed the right choice as it appeared to allow complete synchronisation and had a 16GB storage size. No limitations were mentioned.

I then get the device and find:

1) It cannot synchronise My Documents to the 16GB storage
2) It cannot synchronise his Exchange server mailbox (10GB) 60,000 mail items - crashes

I mean, what's the point? 16GB of what?

Please do not mention 3rd party products as I am interested in an out of the box solution which this HTC is meant to be.

I just though that I would save a few people some time and money by reading this and then they would purchase a laptop.

Probably wouldn't bother with the Shift either if this is what you get.

Thanks.

Adrian.

[NanoRuler]

Adrian,

With respect, an Exchange 2003 mailbox that goes over 2GB is poorly managed and will become corrupted. Microsoft has a utility to specifically deal with and recover Exchange 2003 mailboxes that are over 2 gigs. Get your boss to archive more often!

Addtionally, it is entirely possible to sync almost the entire contents of My Docs, but the question I'd ask is why would you want to?

A business owner would typically have many documents confidential to the business in their My Docs, so it's not a clever idea to sync all that to a portable device. A far better and more elegant solution would be to use SBS's remote workplace and the remote desktop client on the HTC. That way he can even use full apps installed at the office.

[NanoRuler]

Also, I think you may miss the point of the Shift - most people seem to!

DON'T think of it as a phone, or a PDA or a WM device of any kind. It is a UMPC that just happens to have a WM side, so you don't always have to have the whole thing fully booted up. As such, the WM side was NOT intended to be free standing, as on any other WM device, but rather to compliment the functionality of the PC side.

Now some very clever people came up with Shift packs that allow you to "liberate" the WM side, making it far more fully featured, but it still is (in WM terms) a poor cousin to the Athena.

Go get a laptop, you say? Fine, but I suggest first do a needs analysys so you get a device/UMPC/laptop/mainfram/whatever that will actually deliver what you're looking at achieving.

[losdelrock]

Thanks for your elaborate and Company oriented reply.

My client (actually a friend of mine), I just happen to be an IT consultant, is a lawyer. He needs access to most of his My Documents and also all his emails. Exchange 2003 handles his 9.98 GB mailbox realy well in the office. From his laptop he RDPs over a VPN into the server no bother.

I do not think that a sync schedule which is .5K x 60000 items = 30MB should cause the Advantage a problem. And thats all his mailbox, if I just do 2007 and 2008 then thats 25000 items x 0.5K = 12.5MB.

Also the sync just does not complete - via cable, wireless (pardon the pun) or 3G. Now thats no big deal, just don't sell it as a complete sync solution for MS Exchange.

Also, the country I am in has a maximum ADSL bandwidth of 2MB down 512K up, to which his server is attached via a Cisco router.

RDP from the Advantage is a no because his eyesight is bad.

Thanks again for your constructive reply!

[NanoRuler]

Actually my reply was neither company orientated, nor elaborate. If you wanted elaborate then we can delve into the mysteries of the Jet db technology underpinning Exchange 03, since that will also explain the 2 GB mailbox limit. Instead my reply was technically orientated.

I support amongst other things several Exchange 03 installations. Your friend's mailbox alone is approaching the 16 GB db limit Exchange 03 has (18 to 75 GB on SP2 boxes) and I will categorically state his mailbox is poorly managed.

Remember, WM does NOT sync an entire mailbox, but instead a subset of it. Going by what your client wants no WM device will do the trick. Instead, I suggest using a laptop with offline files and folders enabled. That way he'd have his FULL mailbox and ALL his docs with him.

Tell you one thing, though: the minute I hear my solicitor carries ALL his documents out of the office all the time is the minute I change law firm! The exposure is simply too great.

[losdelrock]

Thanks agan for your concise and erudite reply.

I will therefore, after several cooked ROMS and various HTC's, not darken this doorstep again.

I have configured my N95 8GB, and an IPhone 3G to sync this Exchange mailbox succesfully. They do not have the MS Office funtionality my friend requires.

Yes it is SP2 and I will be moving to SBS 2008 as soon as SP1 for SBS 2008 comes out :).

The Advantage - It cannot do what it says.

And it costs a bomb.

And you, (well, I'm using you as the corporate HTC/Microsoft Active Sync/Jet Database/etc. figure) still haven't answered why the My Documents folder cannot be sync'd to the 16GB Flash out of the box but rather to the phone memory.

At the end of the day (and especially these credit crunch days) the user wants what the user wants. And what the user wants is a mobile device which has all his documents and all his emails.

The Advantage cannot do that, therefore is not fit for purpose.

"Smart Mobility?"


Regards,

Adrian.

[losdelrock]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention that the users in the office with the SBS 2003 box are running Office 2007.

Thus, were I to use FTGate or MDaemon, or even a local pop account as opposed to Exchange, I could in theory have a local pst (or ost) file up to a size of 20GB. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/830336

And so, if I chose an Advantage, with Office 2007 and a local pst file, ActiveSync could not synchronise all of it.

The Advantage is not fit for purpose. Or is it Windows Mobile that is not fit for purpose?

Probably Windows, 27 Microsoft exams have taught me this.

Don't sell something if it can't do what it says on the tin.

Adrian.

[NanoRuler]

Adrian,

I don't want this to degenerate into a my-daddy-is-bigger-than-your-daddy type of argument. Having said that, I disagree with you on several aspects:

1) The .PST file in Outlook 03 and 07 can be configured to be up to 33 TB (yes, Tera Bytes) in size. The 33 TB limit is NOT defined by Microsoft, but instead is a by-product of the Unicode encoding used in the file, just as the previous 2 GB limit was the result of limitations to the ANSI encoding such files used before. But all this ignores actual mailbox limitations brought into play by Exchange 03. The default maximum size for an Exchange 03 mailbox is 2 GB - imposed by Microsoft. You CAN override this by manually editing the value using the ADSIEdit console, but before doing so I suggest first exploring the reasoning behind the 2 GB limit - there's a great deal of sense in that limit.

2) I'd dearly LOVE to know how you managed to sync a 10 GB mailbox onto an 8 GB Nokia! Perhaps Nokia's discovered a new compression algorhythm that the rest of the world doesn't know about!

3) After you read through various MSDN articles on the 2 GB mailbox limit, and several other dealing with the suggested maximum number of items in each mailbox folder, kindly explain how you managed to sync a 10 GB mailbox over the air, given the number of forcefully dropped connections Exchange would do on a mailbox containing 60 000 mail items.

4) On MY x7510 My Docs lives on the 16 GB flash memory. It is a simple adjustment to make and an oversight on your vendor's part for not making it default. Still, with XP or Vista a default setup will not meet your needs, so why do you expect WM at default values to be perfect for YOUR needs?

5) I've never been described as a corporate HTC/Microsoft Active Sync/Jet Database/etc. figure. Actually I work for myself, although on occassion I employ sub-contractors. I do support as well as software development, integrating Exchange, Active Directory and 3rd party SQL databases, so I've learned a fair old bit about Exchange's insides. Please don't view me as advocate for corporateland, because I'm not.


I understand you're frustrated, mate, but I did not cause your frustrations, so please don't vent it on me. Nobody here dislikes you, and we'd all like you to stay. It is just that I (and I suspect a few others) disagree with your points of view. I happen to love my x7510, far more after Cmonex weaved her magic and got us all to the point where we can unlock our devices and flash newer/better ROMs to it. My device does EXACTLY what I need from it, so in several ways I'm very fortunate.

Then again, my needs were very clearly defined before I got the x7510. I need a hardware keyboard and a large screen capable of at least VGA as I do a lot of support via remote desktop. I like the on-board GPS (although it isn't essential to me) and I'm currently working on a method to allow some of my clients to view (at my discretion) where I am when I'm out and about for them.

I have no less than four Exchange installations at my office, but they're all lab networks, mimicking client setups. For my own mail I use Live mail from Microsoft because it is simple, easy and just works.

Please consider what I'm saying here: I believe your friend is trying to work dangerously far outside of accepted good practise. You can criticise me for saying that, but you cannot alter the facts.

If he was my client I'd get him an Acer Aspire One, or the new Asus Eee PC with Bluetooth, and a 3G USB connection. I'd then set the laptop up as essentially a thin client and have him log on to a machine at his office using remote desktop.

The Aspire One is a nice little toy with a far larger screen than any WM device, and is hugely cheaper than the HTC Shift. It would give him all the functionality he seems to be after, without risking any data falling in the wrong hands.

[losdelrock]

OK, I must admit this user is pushing the boundaries of the meaning if the word "mobility" but if you are going to sell a product that synchronises with Exchange, surely that means all possibilities for Exchange (or a pst for that matter).

It's like buying a car and finding out that it runs for 50 miles and then stops, which is what happens with the Advantage - it says it has synchronised but hasn't, no errors, failures, nothing.

By the way, it seems it is not a limit on the size of the mailbox but the number of items per folder. I have split his years into months in the inbox/sent folders and I am on 2004 already.

Takes a long time for the initial sync, but once it does it, every subsequent sync flies through, even over GPRS as the looking for changes happens pretty much straight away, it's the processing of the emails which takes the time.

I was joking about leaving the XDA forum - at the end of the day it is not HTC but Windows mobile that is at fault and I have had several HTC's, started with a Blue Angel I upgraded to WM 6.

Thanks for taking the time.

Adrian.

[NanoRuler]

Found this elsewhere here on XDA-Devs: http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdachooser

Your friend might have some benefit from using that.

[NanoRuler]

OK, I must admit this user is pushing the boundaries of the meaning if the word "mobility" but if you are going to sell a product that synchronises with Exchange, surely that means all possibilities for Exchange (or a pst for that matter).

It's like buying a car and finding out that it runs for 50 miles and then stops, which is what happens with the Advantage - it says it has synchronised but hasn't, no errors, failures, nothing.



Now I need to disagree there as well: Not all cars are made equal, either.

It seems to me that you're after a car with the looks of a Lamborghini Diablo, F1 racing performance and handling, space for 8 people and a dog, capable of being driven across the Sahara desert and through the Amazon jungle all with the comfort of a large BMW saloon, all while using only a teaspoon of fuel.

Be a pretty excellent vehicle if it actually existed, but we both know it doesn't, and never will. Now does this mean we should start criticising all car manufacturers, or simply accept some trade-offs when selecting our perfect car?

[jimmunsw]

Dear NanoRuler ,

U rocks , i truly respect you because i have seen many people that are extremely difficult to satisfy yet unable to accept that he or she is difficult to be satisfied . I support u , NanoRuler rules :)

[losdelrock]

Hmm, just did a google on HTC X7510 R.R.P. and this came up:

http://www.cnet.com.au/mobilephones/phones/0,239025953,339285985,00.htm

And so, for that price, or anywhere near what we paid for it, my orginal post on this thread was correct.

A laptop is cheaper and better.

Q.E.D.

Adrian "Lamborgini Countach LP500s" N****

(Surname blanked as I don't want some wierdo turning up at my doorstep with an LP500s and an HTC X7510 attached who has succesfully synced a 60GB Exchange mailbox)

Adendum:

HTC working as well as can be expected, with 1 years emails on it.

[berk_bear]

A laptop is cheaper and better.

Laptop and communicator/(mobile computer) - noncomparable models, IMHO... Different sizes, different options...

[greatestkelvin]

Why did you file a complaint? Lets face it Windows is unstable from the very start. They spent millions developing Vista but nobody wants to use it. If you want something stable, switch to an iphone with an Apple computer.