Guidelines to prevent fraud!

[Flar]

I've distilled from the suggestions below a couple of guidelines, they are not rules and are not enforced, but they might save you from a scam.

1. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is.

If someone offers you a brand new phone for much less than you'd normally pay it's probably not a real deal, this section is meant for (used) devices from our users. Even if a user here would for some reason buy a brand new phone and decide to sell he/she probably won't ask much less than a "normal" store would.

2. Discuss the sale publicly.

We're not suggesting that you reveal the location of your home in public, but discussing a price, accessories and terms for the sale in public will prevent the seller from selling 1 device 3 times.

3. Ask for proof of ownership.

Ask for some proof that the article the seller offers is actually owned by him/her, a picture of the device on a piece of (white) paper with your username, his/her username and the date will at least prove he/she has the device, the paper with details will prevent him/her from using a picture found online.
If it's a relatively new device feel free to ask for the original receipt, you might even still have warranty on the product.

4. Prefer complete sets.

If possible prefer a complete set including the box, original charger and if possible accessories or spare parts. This won't always be an option especially with older devices, but keep in mind that stolen phones usually are phone only, at least try to get the original charger, if someone replaced the original charger they should have a receipt of the replacement.

5. Meet up if possible.

The safest way to transfer goods and money is to meet up, we realize this isn't always an option but if you can choose between someone in the village half an hour away and someone on the other side of the world, meeting up is probably wise, you can test the device and if your happy with what you see you hand over the money and you both go your own way.

6. Use secure ways of payment.

The discussion below proves that not everyone is happy with what other people consider safe, we have no problems with paypal, but a lot of people do. Make sure that the way you pay ensures that you can get your money back if you don't receive the goods, a creditcard usually has good options for this. Be sure not to use anonymous payment methods like western union or moneygram, these are used a lot by scammers.

7. Ship with a party that provides tracking.

Being able to track you shipment will at least provide you with a means to see whether you package has been shipped and when to expect it.

8. Make sure this is a person you want to trust.

Scammers are usually smooth talkers, very good at giving you a good feeling about the transaction. Check if the user has been around on xda-dev, has he/she posted in other places than the marketplace and what do other people think about him/her.

9. Check the IMEI number.

If a phone is stolen the IMEI number will be registered with the police, if possible ask for the IMEI number and check with your local police department.

I'm sure there are things I've forgotten and I'm also sure that the above suggestions can not and will not prevent a scam from happening, but they will at least limit your chances of being scammed. Use your common sense!

Best regards,

Flar

p.s. I previously stated I would remove the discussion, but I feel it provides additional information that might be of use.

[Chainfire]

This is a tough topic, the problem being there's no real way to exchange moneys and goods at the same time. I've seen several marketplaces on several forums I (used to) frequent, and you can't really rule fraud out.

The best fraud-prevention would be a middle-man. Buyer gives them the money, and the middle-man sends the money to the seller once the seller delivers a scan of the post-office receipt that the goods were sent. However this would require a dependable middle-man (like XDA itself) and a lot of work, and is likely not a solution you want to pursue.

The seller is not going to want to send before he sees the money, and the buyer is not going to want to pay before he sees the goods. Financial transactions can usually be cancelled though, which is good for the buyer but bad for the seller. Pay up front and the seller can just not send you the goods, pay after and the buyer can just not pay.

Practical advice? Make sure you got the seller's address (after he all he will need yours to send you the goods as well), don't buy from people who don't have a fair number of posts on the board (post history can give you a good idea of what kind of person you are dealing with), and for the love of god, don't use PayPal.

[duke_stix]

as previously said, this is a tricky one

the biggest problem is whether or not a buyer/seller is 'reliable'

im a member on a few other forums where the buying/selling fora are quite active

some of the guidelines in use there are as follows:


1) EACH member must have X number of USEFUL posts and have been registered for X number of days,

2) when a member wishes to 'sell' or 'buy' in the forums, they must post up the asking price in the thread, (nothing over PM, this way everything is out in the open) the seller must state suitable means of payment/payment arrangements, only when a an item is received by the buyer is the thread closed after the buyer has made a post along the lines of 'Item received 19th march 2009, packaged well, as described', etc etc, and a message left on the sellers profile advising people that that person is a reliable seller

3) when selling, the buyer MUST post a picture of the ACTUAL item being sold along with a piece of paper which has the sellers username and the current date on it

4) sellers should really stick to trading with people in their own country, or the EU etc as appropriate

5) make sure the payment method and delivery method are trackable

[corepda]

I agree with ChainFire, The best thing would be to have a middlemen only if we can afford. That would make things more easier for newbies & avoid having anyone befooled.
Thread for Best Practises can be created with information as to how to participate & market the your products in a better way.
Best ways of shipping items outside a country or within it.
Best ways of making payments.

This rather would be all what we may require for running this forum better. Thats it from my side.
Thanks & Regards
Saksham Katyal

[DaveShaw]

... and for the love of god, don't use PayPal.

Hey CF,

Can you please elaborate, I don't buy much online (due to lack of funds rather than any other reason) and don't understand why not to use PP?

Dave

[Chainfire]

Hey CF,

Can you please elaborate, I don't buy much online (due to lack of funds rather than any other reason) and don't understand why not to use PP?

Dave

off-topic

Because in the land of the scam PayPal is king?

A good way to handle a dispute, according to PayPal, is to close the accounts of everybody involved - sometimes even of all the people who were ever involved with the people who were involved - hold the funds in said accounts hostage, or if there aren't any extract random moneys from your credit card / bank accounts. If you complain about this, they will simply fabricate bogus evidence, transactions that never took place, etc. Lawyering against them is of little use as you will quickly spend more on your lawyer than they took from you.

For more info, Google for PayPal + horror. I assure you the stories you will find are not fake. I could write a book called "How PayPal scammed me out of over $10.000 USD". Biased? Perhaps. But I know from experience it happens - though I did eventually get it back about a year later, I'm one of the more lucky ones if you hear other people's stories. At least with credit cards and whatnot you are insured for this kind of crap.

[DaveShaw]

off-topic

Because in the land of the scam PayPal is king?

A good way to handle a dispute, according to PayPal, is to close the accounts of everybody involved - sometimes even of all the people who were ever involved with the people who were involved - hold the funds in said accounts hostage, or if there aren't any extract random moneys from your credit card / bank accounts. If you complain about this, they will simply fabricate bogus evidence, transactions that never took place, etc. Lawyering against them is of little use as you will quickly spend more on your lawyer than they took from you.

For more info, Google for PayPal + horror. I assure you the stories you will find are not fake. I could write a book called "How PayPal scammed me out of over $10.000 USD". Biased? Perhaps. But I know from experience it happens - though I did eventually get it back about a year later, I'm one of the more lucky ones if you hear other people's stories. At least with credit cards and whatnot you are insured for this kind of crap.

Fairy 'nuf :D:D

Dave

[kn100]

I allways use paypal, never had a problem, but hoping i never will. A good idea that a forum i visit a lot has implimented is a pic of the item in the thread with a piece of paper with your name on it, the sites name, and the date the photo will be posted, on a piece of paper. Best if its white :p

[sergiopi]

some suggestions:

1) Having money BEFORE sending goods is common. Using a credit card means you can make a formal complain (in case the good isn't received) to VISA, MASTERCARD, AMERICAN EXPRESS, ... if you send the money in other ways will be more difficult to have it back. Use credit card, or Paypal (with credit card).

2) The phones are tailored for countries markets, sometime changing a ROM could be easy, but if the hardware can't support your country... be carefull

3) Managing a problem from other side of the word isn't easy, choose a vendor close to you or be prepared :)

4) IMEI is an unique number. In many countries a stolen phone IMEI is blacklisted. This means the phone can't connect to the network, or, worst, the police will track you when you insert your SIM card and turn the phone on.
Ask a payment receipt from vendor, better also the original box and accessories

5) Payment receipt is needed also for warranty purposes. in EC warranty means 2 years, again ASK the receipt to the vendor

6) An "unknown vendor" is a risk, a small risk, but if you can choose ask for a name or e-mail, check the user's messages in the forum and use google search

7) NEVER send your credit card number, or a FAX with your credit card data, or a PERSONAL ID scan. Use only safe engines/web site for credit card transactions (bank, paypal), check if the site is HTTPS site, in many counties a "secured by VISA" program was started

8) The safest way to pay is ALWAYS to pay to the courier when you receive the good, this will increase the expedition costs and UPS, DHL, National Postage Services offer this way to pay: choose this type of payment as the best if available

to be continued....

[Ather]

lol look at this :
http://www.paypalsucks.com/graphics/PPS-Cartoon1.gif

hmm i remmeber when a chinese hacker hacked my paypal account, stole 300$ and bought 2 clone iphones, i reporetd to Paypal, and after 15 days, got my money back

[nir36]

I would only suggest one thing, since I think fraud CAN'T be prevented. If someone wants to get devices for free or money without supplying goods, he/she can, easily.
I suggest to buy only from people whom you know well enough to assume they wouldn't trick you. Of course, you never know... but try to lower the chances.

[the-equinoxe]

Common Scams (with goods):

-The Check lad.
You'll get a check (often for a higher amount), your bank accepts the check and will put it on your account.
You send your goods (and the change) to the "buyer".
-After a few days the check fails, it doesn't get cleared, now you loose the money, your goods, and you can face possible persecution because of using a false check.
[TIP] Don't accept checks, or wait until they are cleared (And that is not when the money is on your account!!).

-the phone lad/whitegoods lad
The common 419 scammer.
Will offer allmost everything at amazing prices and discounts, uses addresses from real companies.
Always give you multiple email contacts(this is because we from AA419 are shutting down a lot of email addies from these lads).
Sometimes even has a webshop...
Prefered payment: Western Union (or moneygram)
Needless to say, they never send you the goods.
[TIP] If it sounds to good to be true, it isn't true.
[TIP2]Alarmbells should ring when somebody wants to use Western Union (when using question/pass phrase it's an anonymous payment service), for moneygram goes the same.

-Lad with fake escrow
this 419 scammer will win your trust by offering you an escrow service.
Lately they copy an website from an existing genuine escrow service with the same name, or with almost the same name.
Needless to say, you'll loose your goods/money.
[TIP] Check the registration data from the website if you don't know the escrow service.
[TIP2] google the escrow, usefull keywords to add is "scam OR 419"

Etc etc etc..

*lad: typically used for a 419 scammer, although the lad is mostly only the bomber (mail bomber, forum messages, also used to use facsimiles etc etc.)
*mugu the victim (translation for mugu, "dumbass", that is why lads also are referred to als mugu's)
*guyman, higher ranking 419 scammer, the one whe receives the actual money.
*Oga (the person to whom a guyman listens, sometimes the guyman operates on his own.
*419 nigerian law against advanced fee fraud.

If you want to know more:
google keywords: AA419, 419, scambaiter, fake bank killers, phonelads. trunk money.
Lots of reading stuff, lots of sad stories of victims..

[DaveShaw]

[TIP] If it sounds to good to be true, it isn't true.

That's the main point in all this (IMHO).
If you don't trust someone and it's too good to be true, it's most likley a scam.

If in any doubt, just walk away.

Dave

[joel2009]

Best rule of all:
If it Sounds to Good to be True Then it Probably is.

[Raioneru]

Hi, just wanted to react regarding Paypal. I have been an ebay user for 3 years now, and I can say that if there any other easier way to pay on ebay I would gladly use it but the problem is that Ebay makes it hard for sellers to implement the others payment procedures into the system. also paypal sometimes gives some discounts, live cash etc...
also with the popularity of ebay all around the world, Paypal get the same popularity as well. that's why it's so popular.

Using paypal can be sometimes quite difficult, in my selling debut, I had problems with them too. but I learned ^^

[Philip]

Suggest that you have a look at AVForums. They have a thriving set of "classifieds" in their forums (including one for mobile phones), and have published a set of trading rules which have evolved over time, and which are rigidly enforced.

The rules can be seen at http://www.avforums.com/forums/view_trading_rules.htm

[wanwarlock]

i was quite active in a board from ireland when i lived there until 2 years ago, called boards.ie.

all trading was done on the thread, no off thread/pm dealing. i think that was quite a good system but i was dealing with people mostly in dublin then and met face to face with seller/buyer & only cash was used.

i guess the pic with username & date & item is good as well.

never had any problems with paypal yet! have used alertpay recently, but not long enough to give a proper comment.

[timmymarsh]

I agree with Joel on this.

THe best and safest way is to be utterly sure and confident you are dealing with someone genuine (as far as you can be). If they are genuine, both parties, they wont mind asking/answering questions, having a conversation etc etc. Only deal with people who seem to be real and never with anyone who offers something amazing for nothing.

Selling/Buying something from anywhere on the "world wide wonderfullness" is always a risk, but then again so is crossing the road?:D

"Let the buyer beware"

[Bradaland]

I do alot of online buying, and I have had issues with PayPal in the past. For the most part, I think it is important to get some seller details.

I never deal solely by email. I would typically want to see a picture of the product (possibly via MMS) and also to make a 2nd form of communication with seller.

Email is too easy to fake. If the seller is nowhere else on the net, (a persontal store, a long standing ebay store, Yahoo, skype, google talk, forums, etc) then why did they just suddenly appear and start selling products?

If the person can not openly reveal some comfort details for you, then don't buy from them.

When you call your local retailer, they offer you store location, phone numbers, emails, managers name, etc....an online seller should offer you at least something that allows you to know they exist legitimately and can be found if necessary. If the seller hides details, they will possibly hide the product after payment is received.

[Flar]

I've edited the first post to show the main guidelines. I will leave the discussion in place as I feel it provides valuable information.

If you want to link to the guidelines please link to the first post, most people won't read the whole thread and skip to the most recent additions.

Greetz,

Flar

[sergiopi]

I will suggest also to add to the first post:

CHOOSE/PREFER Devices with original box and accessories. Stolen devices are commonly sold without original charger and accessories.
The original BOX has a sticker outside with the serial nunber and IMEI on it. Remember: e-bay transaction aren't commonly accepted as proof of purchase for warranty purposes, because e-bay is for USED goods

[The J]

I frequent a technology forum with its own Buy/Sell section and they recommend that both parties have a Heatware (www.heatware.com) account. Heatware is a website that allows users to post eBay-style feedback for those they trade with on message boards like this one. The idea is that you can see the other person's feedback from various forums and use that to decide if you want to deal with him/her. Of course, this cannot completely guarantee that who you're dealing with is totally legit (especially if users never leave feedback!) but you can at least have an idea of what you may be getting into.

[Flar]

I will suggest also to add to the first post:

CHOOSE/PREFER Devices with original box and accessories. Stolen devices are commonly sold without original charger and accessories.
The original BOX has a sticker outside with the serial nunber and IMEI on it. Remember: e-bay transaction aren't commonly accepted as proof of purchase for warranty purposes, because e-bay is for USED goods

I've added it to the first post.

Greetz,

Flar

[phuKKah]

Example of Rule 2: From my private messages today

Hello: I have an AT&T TILT Kaiser 8925 that I will let you have for $200.00 (9/10 condition or better) if you still need a device, we can make immediate arrangements. Please PM me if interested.

MOD EDIT Removed user signature by user request

Dood, you have one post. LOL IF YOU THINK I'M THAT DUMB xDxDxD


^^Fail attempt at getting me to fail

[Teej53214]

I can give you a first hand experiance as to why PayPal is horrible... To make a long story short... I work in a computer related field and every now and again I can very Microsoft and Intel products at FAR below market value... on eBay, I sold someone a copy of Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise edition for $175.. I had Microsoft ship the item directly to them (even had tracking).. They then disputed it, and I proved they received it.. They changed their story and said they had it, but it was not a legal copy.. I provided my invoice from Microsoft which noted trackign that it was beign shipped directly to my purchaser... The person sent me back the software at thair point, opened and installed on 3 computers... eBay & Paypal said "too bad" and withdrew the $175 from my checking account..... So the person got the software, installed it on 3 machines, and I got left holding the bill... PayPal is evil....

[jskapur]

a suggestion if you buy in bulk: ask to buy a couple of test products to be sure they own it and can send it. Another point that was aforementioned about the IMEI number is good.
Thanks and a great helpful forum.:)

[freelancex]

off-topic

Because in the land of the scam PayPal is king?

A good way to handle a dispute, according to PayPal, is to close the accounts of everybody involved - sometimes even of all the people who were ever involved with the people who were involved - hold the funds in said accounts hostage, or if there aren't any extract random moneys from your credit card / bank accounts. If you complain about this, they will simply fabricate bogus evidence, transactions that never took place, etc. Lawyering against them is of little use as you will quickly spend more on your lawyer than they took from you.

For more info, Google for PayPal + horror. I assure you the stories you will find are not fake. I could write a book called "How PayPal scammed me out of over $10.000 USD". Biased? Perhaps. But I know from experience it happens - though I did eventually get it back about a year later, I'm one of the more lucky ones if you hear other people's stories. At least with credit cards and whatnot you are insured for this kind of crap.

I once got scammed by someone on Ebay when looking to buy a PS3.

Paypal returned my money within 2 weeks of the auction end. Plus due to the exchange rate, I actually got a couple of quid more back as it was from America :)

I suppose it is one of those, each to thier own situation. Ive had good experience, others have had bad. Like everything else in life I guess...

FX