[TOOL] G2x Nullifier AROMA [UPDATED!] 2 August, fully customizable: Made with AROMA!

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mansa_noob

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2012
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Markham
Please read above post, again and more carefully. Once you're done, read it again, then stop and think about how quickly one would accumulate 1k writes, even merely on stock. And, yes it would take a damn long time to accumulate 1m writes.

Yes, I agree. But if the flash in the g2x is the 100k type then over time cache would suffer.

Lets do some math shall we: first page of cache written all the time, say 50 times a day would result in failure of that page in 2000 days. If that is moderate use the heavy user could easily achieve that in 1/10th the time. 200 days is < 1 year. The page will fail, but a smart os would just reallocate and hence give longer time.

As I said, I used to work with these things... In heavy use you will see failures!

BTW I read what you wrote. It was very nice.

Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA
 

menting

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Yes, I agree. But if the flash in the g2x is the 100k type then over time cache would suffer.

Lets do some math shall we: first page of cache written all the time, say 50 times a day would result in failure of that page in 2000 days. If that is moderate use the heavy user could easily achieve that in 1/10th the time. 200 days is < 1 year. The page will fail, but a smart os would just reallocate and hence give longer time.

As I said, I used to work with these things... In heavy use you will see failures!

BTW I read what you wrote. It was very nice.

Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA

you would only see 100k on SLC, not MLC, as most of these NAND should be.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5067/understanding-tlc-nand/2
at the 2x node, MLC only lasts for about 2k-3k cycles, and that's on average. the worst crap that might only last for 1k or less cycles go to the cheap flash drives, the middle crap might go to the sd cards. The best ones (the ones that really last 2k-3k or marginally more) go to SSDs. I should know, I work in a company that makes these.
The flash won't keep writing to the same page every time, even though it would think it was writing to the same page of cache like your example , as the controller inside should have write leveling logic to it, and will spread the writes evenly around. But you are still correct, under heavy use the flash will definitely see failures, and will happen sooner than one might expect.
 
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mansa_noob

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2012
533
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Markham
you would only see 100k on SLC, not MLC, as most of these NAND should be.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5067/understanding-tlc-nand/2
at the 2x node, MLC only lasts for about 2k-3k cycles, and that's on average. the worst crap that might only last for 1k or less cycles go to the cheap flash drives, the middle crap might go to the sd cards. The best ones (the ones that really last 2k-3k or marginally more) go to SSDs. I should know, I work in a company that makes these.
The flash won't keep writing to the same page every time, even though it would think it was writing to the same page of cache like your example , as the controller inside should have write leveling logic to it, and will spread the writes evenly around. But you are still correct, under heavy use the flash will definitely see failures, and will happen sooner than one might expect.

Awesome. I was hoping an expert would step in.

+1. And you are absolutely right that logic is required to ensure same bits are not stressed over and over again!

IMHO this should settle the debate :D

Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA
 

Волк

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Jan 7, 2012
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Ok, enough thread jacking. I could care less where you work or how old you are. Stating how long you've been around or where you work is just a sign of arrogance. Nand failure from too many writes is a myth with no proof, I see a bunch of if's, if this if that, like I said if it were feesable we'd have seen it spread widely on other devices by now, with or without the black-listing of bad sectors.
 

menting

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Apr 15, 2011
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Ok, enough thread jacking. I could care less where you work or how old you are. Stating how long you've been around or where you work is just a sign of arrogance. Nand failure from too many writes is a myth with no proof, I see a bunch of if's, if this if that, like I said if it were feesable we'd have seen it spread widely on other devices by now, with or without the black-listing of bad sectors.


WOW...you think it's a myth? Hardly.

I have a dead first generation (but not released) dead SSD from my company in my possession due to firmware not write leveling sector 0 and it wore out. The team leader for that project told me that all the first generation hard drives died about the same time as mine. He even checked it through our internal tools. That proof enough?

Want more proof? If it is a myth, why do SSD hard drives have a write endurance spec? Why do SSDs bother to overprovision? Why are NAND manufacturers worried about write endurance on new process nodes? I mean, if it's a myth, it shouldn't be something to worry about right? Apparently you know more about NAND than those manufacturers.
Here's even more proof. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?271063-SSD-Write-Endurance-25nm-Vs-34nm

I'd get you the write endurance distribution graphs from work if I could, but those numbers are proprietary. I can guarantee you though, it DOES wear out from writes.

To me, arrogance is one who doesn't work in the industry saying the person who does work in the industry is wrong without any proof.
 
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menting

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yes you did, and if you stopped at that I wouldn't have replied. But insulting someone's knowledge by saying a fact is a myth went a bit too far for me.
 

Alakratt

Senior Member
Aug 9, 2011
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10
On my next flash I'll try this tool, haven't tried it since I get a little freaked out because of the word 'null', I am programmer so...yeah. I've looked most of the pages on this thread, I admit not all of them, I have a question; I know this wipes what needs to be wiped for ROM flashing, but does it wipe only that or the whole SD? Also, does it also wipe the internal SD?
 

owain94

Inactive Recognized Developer
Sep 21, 2010
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The Hague
What is exactly the point of "nullifing" the cache partition on a device where the cache partition isn't used??

Sent from my LG-P990 using xda premium
 
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owain94

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? ok and how is it not used? and if it "isn't used" why would we need to format it upon doing any update on something you say 'isnt used?"

Well the cache partition is normally used for the dalvik cache
But since our cache partition is so small we store the cache on the data partition (/data/dalvik-cache)
By defining dalvik.vm.dexopt-data-only=1 in the prop files or even the inits

And cache doesn't need to get wiped...
You can even boot your phone up with a corrupted (so unmounted) cache partition (yes is happened me once caused by that buggy touch recovery)

Also davik cache doesn't needs to be wiped on a update since android checks the dalvik and rebuild it when it is not matching the the system apps or frameworks hashes

So yeah cache partition is useless on this device

I have resized my partitions using NVflash too use the cache partition for the dalvik cache that is why i know it is normally useless

I don't know what you store on it but the 2 folders (lost+found and recovery) are not really needed for the system

Flashing new ROMs only need a full wipe if you change between major releases like between gingerbread and ics

I never wiped data / dalvik / cache since i am running ics and still no failures or any problems at all

Asked arcee once about it he also never wiped dalvik or cache in his device

You can search for the post google did make about how dalvik works in android if you do not believe me

Sent from my LG-P990 using xda premium
 
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da-pharoah

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Mar 24, 2009
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yes you did, and if you stopped at that I wouldn't have replied. But insulting someone's knowledge by saying a fact is a myth went a bit too far for me.
im gonna go with your misunderstanding him... basically yes wear and tear does happen. From what I gather he didnt call you a liar he just stated that 'in the field' there has been no reports of sd failure on a mass level to where we would consider not using format tools and nullify tools anymore. you even stated yourself that the card you had failed...... “but not released" so the general public didnt use those cards... as it happens with what we have going on with this script and the way android is the flash card manufactures, from what I read at the beginning of this project, have done so much dang R&D that they set the bar at 1m write cycles... thats why Volk went forward with this after he and I did lots of testing. Because we would generally not reach that level on our phones.... with these tools.. so calm down killer its not like he is calling you a liar flat out or something.

edit:

Well the cache partition is normally used for the dalvik cache
But since our cache partition is so small we store the cache on the data partition (/data/dalvik-cache)
By defining dalvik.vm.dexopt-data-only=1 in the prop files or even the inits

And cache doesn't need to get wiped...
You can even boot your phone up with a corrupted (so unmounted) cache partition (yes is happened me once caused by that buggy touch recovery)

Also davik cache doesn't needs to be wiped on a update since android checks the dalvik and revuild it when it is not matching the the system apps or frameworks

So yeah cache partition is useless on this device

I have resized my partitions using NVflash too use the cache partition for the dalvik cache that is why i know it is normally useless

I don't know what you store on it but the 2 folders (lost+found and recovery) are not really needed for the system

Sent from my LG-P990 using xda premium
yea idk.. it sounds believable except you have an o2x... we have a g2x... so until you tell me that you have done that on the g2x and had no issues then I would probably agree with you and the nvflash findings you've done.... but being that these two phones are different its kinda hard to believe that pretty much taking away (re-partitioning) the /cache partition is ok and you wont have any issues... thats pretty much like saying the /cache partition on ALL android devices isn't used....
 
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Волк

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Jan 7, 2012
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http://www.addictivetips.com/mobile...plained-boot-system-recovery-data-cache-misc/

"/cache

This is the partition where Android stores frequently accessed data and app components. Wiping the cache doesn’t effect your personal data but simply gets rid of the existing data there, which gets automatically rebuilt as you continue using the device."

Or if you want something more authoratitive we have our very own XDA:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1097464

Doesn't sound useless to me. All this is turning into SPAM and I have other things I'm in the middle of or would like to do with my time, having to attend to petty questions which are either not necessary or have been discussed are a waste, go back to your respective thread and stay there, I don't troll your threads, don't troll mine.
 

menting

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2011
307
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im gonna go with your misunderstanding him... basically yes wear and tear does happen. From what I gather he didnt call you a liar he just stated that 'in the field' there has been no reports of sd failure on a mass level to where we would consider not using format tools and nullify tools anymore. you even stated yourself that the card you had failed...... “but not released" so the general public didnt use those cards... as it happens with what we have going on with this script and the way android is the flash card manufactures, from what I read at the beginning of this project, have done so much dang R&D that they set the bar at 1m write cycles... thats why Volk went forward with this after he and I did lots of testing. Because we would generally not reach that level on our phones.... with these tools.. so calm down killer its not like he is calling you a liar flat out or something.
Hopefully I was wrong and misunderstood him. I apologize if I misunderstood.

I just don't like the fact that people think it's not an issue, because it is, and it's becoming more and more of an issue with new process nodes. I keep telling my friends that if they were to buy a SSD, stay away from the newest process nodes if possible. Why do enterprises use SLC instead of MLC? Write endurance is one of the biggest reasons, if not the biggest reason.

Tools like the Nullifier are fine. There's a need for them. But don't use it religiously, because it does eat into the write cycles pretty quickly if used that way. Use it when needed, and one should never have any issues with these tools. There's a reason why Windows 7 doesn't turn on defrag for SSDs, because it does a ton of writes every time it runs, and it WILL cause issues down the road.

I think that's all I have to say about this now, unless someone says it's a myth again.
 
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Волк

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Jan 7, 2012
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Google Pixel 6 Pro
Yes, you misunderstood me, yes I will call it a myth until I start seeing post after post on XDA saying "nand failure due to too many writes (confirmed)". If I need to I will get a mod to step in because I can say "myth" all I want and if you don't like it, as I said, leave my thread.
 

menting

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2011
307
55
Yes, you misunderstood me, yes I will call it a myth until I start seeing post after post on XDA saying "nand failure due to too many writes (confirmed)". If I need to I will get a mod to step in because I can say "myth" all I want and if you don't like it, as I said, leave my thread.

Spreading misinformation isn't the way that one should conduct themselves imo. Especially since you are a dev, and people tend to believe whatever devs say, so you should hold yourself to the highest standard possible in order to better the community. Don't say stuff is only myth unless you have absolute proof, either for or against.
I'm just trying to give correct information and calling things out the way they are.

If a Mod believes that trying to correct the misinformation given should not be done , by all means, delete my posts.

btw, once a nand starts failing, it means ECC will start becoming insufficient and will start failing, and it'll slowly become more and more unstable. There's no easy way to just show it without the tools that actually read the status of each nand cell, and therefore there will definitely be no posts saying nand failure due to too many writes.
 
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kolyan

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Jan 8, 2008
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so now devs claim this tool causes more harm then good..... lol

ps. been using CW wipe for long time without issues
 

da-pharoah

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Mar 24, 2009
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so now devs claim this tool causes more harm then good..... lol

ps. been using CW wipe for long time without issues
yes but thats not a full cleaning process... the wipe in CWM is the same as the scrubber which is eqivelent to sweeping the floor in your kitchen then putting all that swept stuff under the rug by the back door..... versus using the dust pan to gather that stuff up and clean that right up!!! Such as the Nullifier does. Just fyi. lol
 
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  • 60
    Hello,

    Here is my no longer new wipe tool, inspired by the G2x Scrubber.

    The Nullifier.

    This uses a special command in combination with a special file to overwrite the internal partitions with 0's, hence "Null" for 0 and "-ifier" for the fact that it does the action of the root word to something else. It also formats *all* the partitions afterward and *new* checks for, and repairs any errors on them.

    6 Oct: This tool is now depreciated and succeded by the G2x AIO wipe tool.

    New 2 August:

    Updated to 3.1, now fully customizeable by partition. Still haven't gotten around to making status bars, it's going to take a little bit to work out the best implementation.

    New 28 July: I've been working on wrapping my head around the infamous AROMA installer and have at least made some progress in understanding it. As alot of people in the past had wanted to have the option to choose which to wipe, and how many times. We're not there yet. Yet. I just wanted to give those interested something new to chew on while I work out how to break it down function by function. Currently I have it made so that you have one installer which allows you to choose between a single and dual wipe.

    New 26 March: The Cache Nullifier I edited the script down to just do a single pass Nullification then format and error check. This will work on the G2x, O2x and su660.

    26 April update: Changed the commands so that it writes ext4 file system instead of ext3 when it formats and created an error check zip, mostly just because it could prove to be useful. I tried a couple of different sign programs to sign these properly but in testing signature verification fails still.

    Minor update 1 March: swapped out the binaries on the 2.0.6 releases so they're the same as the older versions, added an ext4 cache nullifier, and fixed the code on the dual-wipe as I was sober when that one was revised as it had errors which would prevent it from running.

    Some brief need to knows:

    1. This is a little lengthy process so please bear with it. The longest wipe is on /data which will take about 7 minutes. Obviously, make sure you have plenty of battery life before running it or are charging.

    2. You *must not* power off your phone without first installing a new ROM or restoring a nandroid after you use this. See post here:
    http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=23998091&postcount=125

    3. I will provide help, support, etc., but I am not, nor is anyone else involved with this, responsible for any problems you may have in the extremely unlikely event that you do.

    old links:

    Depreciated

    Direct link to 3.1:

    Depreciated

    Thanks to da-pharoah for being my main beta tester who stuck with me all the way, even after bricking his phone and getting the progress bar pinned down as best as possible.

    Additional thanks to anyone who contributed (you know who you are).
    11
    Nullifier Q and A:

    Q: Will this harm my phone in any way or brick it?
    A: No, the incident with Pharaoh's phone was an unexpected problem brought about from the source-file I was using at the time causing CWM and Android to think the phone was encrypted. I no longer use that source-file.

    Q: Why not just format everything?
    A: Because a format isn't intended to erase data, though, to a degree, does so. This script is intended to and will wipe out the data and leave a clean set of partitions for a ROM to be installed to.

    Q: (Submitted by Cargohook) Would it be idiotic or fruitless to run this and then restore a nandroid backup? I mean, would that defeat the purpose?
    A: I highly doubt it would be a waste of your time. On an educated hunch, when you restore a nandroid all CWM does is format the partitions then load the data from the nandroid to those partitions; back to square 1 with old data being left behind.

    Q: Why don't I get a message about formatting /boot?
    A: Because it doesn't format /boot. Why? In testing I found that it doesn't need it. It's all a matter of how Android uses boot.img and how it's copied.

    Q: Does this wipe internal or external SD? (added because it keeps getting asked)
    A: In a word, no.

    Q: Will using this cause nand-failure or make my phone unusable if used too much?
    A: In my opinion, no. In other's, yes. By my experience I have never encountered such a problem. To give you a better answer, please see Overground's post on that subject here: http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=25257903&postcount=327
    (Thanks for the objective opinion overground)

    (More to come as need be)
    8
    Reserved just in case. (I knew there was a reason for me reserving this)

    Changelog for 3.1:
    Now you can select one, two or no wipes per partition, a long-requested feature.

    Changelog for 3.0.5:

    1. Obviously this is now AROMA based.

    2. The scripting for the progress bar is different due to AROMA, so for now we have no status bar progress. I'm waiting to see if someone can explain what Amarullz means in his explanation since I can't make heads or tails of it. Otherwise all the old functionality is the exact same.

    Changelog: (old)

    1. Added progress bar.

    It's not 100% accurate, but sadly it's impossible to get it 100%, even after tons of testing.

    2. Fixed format issue with /cache.

    Thanks Overground for showing us a better format command to use
    and to my tester/protogee Pharoah, who added the unmount command which made CWM less pissed at me.

    3. Added a model check just in case someone doesn't know what they're getting ahold of and turn their phone's internals into something resembeling Chernobyl's Reactor Number Four.

    4. Removed unneeded mount command in dual wipe script which was causing problems.


    Plans for the future:

    Create a menu system so that the user has a choice of what to wipe, and single vs dual wipes, or no wipe at all.
    This is coming along well, I decided to keep it more straight-forward versus making a system of menus, so once it's thoroughly tested it'll be released

    Hopefully a time-based progress bar is still possible, if not I guess it's time to find someone who likes math to figure out the percentage of each operation.
    8
    I understand it is hard when someone questions or says something about your work when your very passionate about what you do. i say take a deep breath and relax if you don't like it don't use it if you like it use it it is a simple concept i use this all the time and have never ever ever had a problem unless i have forgotten to flash something aka human error lets all play nice and appreciate the hard work volk has put in to this


    have a great day

    John C Craig
    x0xhellx0x
    6
    Ok. I've read over the last few pages and I see both sides of the debate.
    IMO, both arguments hold some validity.

    I have personally used this tool with no ill effects, and my phone seemed to run better after having used it (I have no hard data to provide to substantiate this).

    That being said, I would advise users of 3 things.

    1. (Obviously) Use at your own risk.
    2. Overuse of the tool could (but is not proven to) be detrimental to the device.
    3. Read and use common sense when making the decision to use this (or any other) experimental tool.

    Everyone's arguments have been heard and made, and I have not removed any pertinent posts as I believe them to help inform the end user of their ultimate decision.

    Please keep this discussion on-topic and civil as I will not hesitate to exercise my powers on those who attempt to further derail the thread.

    Thank you for your cooperation.