Kernel issue - Bricked By a Stunner Rom version

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rebista

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Nov 26, 2011
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It seems a bit strange to me that "the kernel degrades emmc" by just using the ROM as usual. I fully understand the issue with WRITING to the emmc but not that it would be "dangerous" to just use the ROM.

When the "degrading" can also happen when deleting "larger" files then I guess "normal use" can be dangerous too.

Today I deleted a large file and the file manager got stuck. And now I am a bit worried about what could have been the reason for this ...
 

E90 Commie

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2009
1,753
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New York
It is important to have a confirmation here:

Should everyone that are using the LP5/LP6 kernel immediately flash a different kernel through PC Odin (or Mobile Odin) since the current kernel can damage the emmc just from NORMAL USE OF THE ROM?

I.e - I am running Criskelo V2 LP6 with LP5 kernel, should I immediately download a different kernel and replace LP5?

Or can I keep the device as it is (it is working normally) and then flash a new kernel later - as long as I DON'T USE CWM for that flash?
 

copperdawgnc

Senior Member
Jul 21, 2010
509
62
Charlotte NC USA
Need an expert

It is important to have a confirmation here:

Should everyone that are using the LP5/LP6 kernel immediately flash a different kernel through PC Odin (or Mobile Odin) since the current kernel can damage the emmc just from NORMAL USE OF THE ROM?

I.e - I am running Criskelo V2 LP6 with LP5 kernel, should I immediately download a different kernel and replace LP5?

Or can I keep the device as it is (it is working normally) and then flash a new kernel later - as long as I DON'T USE CWM for that flash?

What should we do?
 

ahalford

Senior Member
Sep 24, 2011
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When the "degrading" can also happen when deleting "larger" files then I guess "normal use" can be dangerous too.

Today I deleted a large file and the file manager got stuck. And now I am a bit worried about what could have been the reason for this ...

I guess, CPU load, while processing large file, and not perfectly optimized kernel. There can be some hanging with user apps, if it's not optimized for ICS, but if it's stock file manager - it's a rom problem.

I'm on LP5 kernel. I do feel slight heat add on heavy processes, comparing to GB. Although, I can't judge in objective, cause the phone is in fairly thick case (Case Mate Emerge Smooth) and it's definitely not cold weather in Israel. I was observing heating issue with GB also, and I can't tell it's very big difference. Also, it's naturally, when coming to custom rom, to follow more closely all possible issues, and, as result, to get a bit over-impression about what's going on.
Anyways, I'd say - if someone is getting fc's or stuck on constanst base, may be it worth to come back to stock GB.
 
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GuestK00407

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Let's see here: I am now running Criskelo V2 LP6 without any problems. The kernel is the leaked LP5. I guess that everything is OK as long as I stay on this combination - i.e just using it.

It seems a bit strange to me that "the kernel degrades emmc" by just using the ROM as usual. I fully understand the issue with WRITING to the emmc but not that it would be "dangerous" to just use the ROM.

The question is when it comes to flashing a different kernel: is Mobile Odin OK or is PC Odin an absolute necessity?

Since the Mobile Odin boots its own kernel and does the flash completely separated from the system kernel, I can't see any problems with using that method to replace the LP5 leak kernel.

The most important question is: should I quickly replace the LP5 kernel with a different one or is everything OK as long as I don't flash new ROMs using the LP5-CWM?

My device is working great with Criskelo otherwise, no issues at all.

Well the thing is that the system partition isn't the only thing on your emmc. The parts that your phone has non-su read/write access to might also be affected by this kind of "feature"-that is, there's nothing stopping your kernel from pissing all over your data partition or internal sdcard if there's a hiccup in data transfer while installing an app or even just taking a photo. If that happens it could make one of those partitions unusable, as happened in the I9100 forums, but this seems unlikely and as far as I know hasn't been reported on a note. If you want to be super paranoid, by all means flash entropy's kernel asap or return to gb, but I've been using ICS leak kernels since about the week of the LP1 repack without an issue and I'm going to wait until entropy's kernel is a little less alpha before I make that transition.

If mobile Odin boots its own kernel to flash things then it should be safe to flash a kernel that way provided chainfire's mobile Odin N7000 root kernel isn't affected by this (it's probably fine), but as usual most devs recommend desktop Odin over mobile Odin for just about anything so I'd rather go that path.
 
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E90 Commie

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Feb 5, 2009
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New York
Thanks for the answer!

My plan is to stay on the LP5 kernel until that new Entropy Kernel has been updated a bit further. Returning to GB is obviously an option but I am not very interested in that at the moment.

The Mobile Odin is, according to the information available (and that is what it does) boots it's own kernel when you flash so it should be safe to use to flash a safe kernel.

I have updated a couple of apps and copied large files to the emmc with the LP5 kernel using USB Mass Storage mode without any problems yet. I don't notice anything amiss with my Note. So I don't see the need to be super paranoid. I guess it is OK to just stop installing and updating apps and just use the device and wait for a new kernel.
 

Entropy512

Senior Recognized Developer
Aug 31, 2007
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A bit more information:
The way flash memory works, it needs to be erased before writing to it. This is a bit different than spinning magnetic disks, where you just overwrite it. Writing new data to a blank disk and writing data over existing data were identical in performance.

As a result, with magnetic disks, the classic way of deleting a file or formatting a partition was just to delete references to it - the actual file contents would still be there. On flash, this was not optimal for performance because writing to blank blocks is much faster than writing to a block that has info on it because that block must be blanked first.

Eventually, the TRIM command was added to various operating systems, such that when a partition was formatted or a file deleted, the OS could tell the flash controller that those blocks were no longer used and could be erased immediately. It makes the wear leveller's job easier to have a list of "unused" blocks.

I believe MMC_CAP_ERASE is related to TRIM (I haven't had time to figure out the exact differences) - even with TRIM disabled, it seems to make a difference. Gingerbread kernels and I9100 ICS kernels don't support TRIM or ERASE. ICS kernels for SHW-M250S/K/L support ERASE - and these seem to have a risk of hardbricking or permanent eMMC damage when you do a large ERASE - confirmed for a wipe in CWM and any operation that wipes first, suspected for wiping in 3e recovery of a non-repacked leak kernel that is affected, and I suspect a large file deletion (such as a video file of hundreds of megabytes) may also be risky - but I'm not sure.

It seems like ICS leaks for the Epic 4G Touch, AT&T Galaxy S II (SGH-I777), and the Galaxy Note (GT-N7000 and GT-I9220) have the same issue as the SHW-M250S/K/L kernels based on reports. Unfortunately leak kernels don't have source so there's no way to tell what changed, no way to know which ones are dangerous and which ones aren't. For this reason I don't trust any ICS leak kernels for the above devices.

This may be a problem only for a small percentage of users - 1%, 2%, maybe as high as 5% - who knows. Other people are fine with the affected kernels - for example Task650 and ktoonsez never had any issues with the UCLD3 leak kernel, but others hardbricked. gokhanmoral was able to wipe multiple times with SiyahKernel 3.1rc6 (based on SHW-M250L ICS sources instead of GT-I9100 ICS sources), but others hardbricked or experienced permanent damage when wiping.

Right now, MMC_CAP_ERASE seems to be the suspect - but no one can be entirely sure without:
Source code for leaks of affected devices that don't have source (Note, E4GT, I777)
Taking dangerous risks such as trying to reproduce the problem - if you reproduce it, it's time for a motherboard replacement.

The only thing we know for sure is that the GT-I9100 ICS leaks and official releases seem safe, as are kernels built from the I9100 Update4 source drop, as are all known Gingerbread kernels for any device.
 
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MR.change

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2011
532
123
Baghdad
This is correct, abyssnote should also be fine for writing to system, but you don't want to be flashing it in cwm from an affected kernel. It would be ideal if you flashed ANY unaffected root kernel using Odin before flashing a ROM in recovery. I believe it is okay for a ROM to include an affected kernel, too, so long as you don't do very intensive writing to the system partition while using it, but you would need to flash an unaffected kernel in desktop Odin again before flashing something else in recovery.

The Mobile Odin is, according to the information available (and that is what it does) boots it's own kernel when you flash so it should be safe to use to flash a safe kernel.
.

This is actually quite interesting , I didn't know that mobile ODIN uses it's own kernel to flash ,even though I use it as my preferred flashing method.
Although I think the reason most devs refrain from using it is because it doesn't maintain root on ICS ?
Can anybody confirm or deny this please?
 

TexasBlack

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2010
213
12
FROM TEXAS BUT I RESIDE STL
OK y'all my problem is that I'm stuck in version 5 stunner... my cwm won't work for anything... I tried to flash abyss red,1.4.26 and 25....it gets stuck in installing mode....so wtf....

Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
 

yanix

Senior Member
Apr 1, 2012
59
14
Quezon City
That's Pretty much what I understood from entropy's posts ,but what I don't know is if abyssnote kernel 4.2 has these issues? I thought it was based on GB and thus safe to use?
And if my understanding is true then one wouldn't need PC ODIN to flash ICS ,but rather flash abyssnote 4.2 and then flash any ICS ROM.
But here is another culprit (again correct me if I'm wrong) ,most ICS ROMs come with their lp5 kernels and will override abyssnote kernel thus putting you at risk again.

So what needs to be done after flashing a ROM.zip with Recovery or even PC ODIN is to flash entropy's kernel using PC ODIN so as to overwrite the faulty kernel safely.

Did I make any sense?

I think chill392 was referring to Angelom's ICS-based Kernel which was discontinued.
http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1526852
 

brycestejskal

Senior Member
Dec 14, 2006
155
34
NOR-CAL
So can I just root while I'm in stunner 5...or what's my next process

Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium

Download mode and Desktop Odin to a GB Rom

I Lost root as you did when I used Abyss 4.2 to go from GB to Stunner 1.4.26. Reflashed Abyss and restored Nandroid. Then used mobile ODIN to flash LP1 Repack and then flashed 1.4.26 and root was maintained.

If you lost root you will need to Download mode with desktop odin.
 
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GuestK00407

Guest
Download mode and Desktop Odin to a GB Rom

I Lost root as you did when I used Abyss 4.2 to go from GB to Stunner 1.4.26. Reflashed Abyss and restored Nandroid. Then used mobile ODIN to flash LP1 Repack and then flashed 1.4.26 and root was maintained.

If you lost root you will need to Download mode with desktop odin.

If you don't want to download+flash the entire LP1 repack you could just odin flash any root kernel to restore your root without wiping your note. Here is a link to the LP6 repack kernel in a .tar which you can flash in the PDA slot in desktop odin. (the action of flashing this kernel with odin should not harm your emmc despite this being one of the kernels affected by the emmc_write problems)
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=25224106&postcount=160

I still urge people to start flashing Entropy's kernel at least in mobile odin prior to flashing new roms, though
 
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Latoc

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2010
347
94
Ok guys,

So now that I am back to GB, and everything seems to be working right, is it still possible that my flash memory is damaged and will give me trouble down the road ?

Is this like an unnoticed cancer that will kill you later, or more like a heart attack...?

Thanks for your answer.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using XDA
 
G

GuestK00407

Guest
Ok guys,

So now that I am back to GB, and everything seems to be working right, is it still possible that my flash memory is damaged and will give me trouble down the road ?

Is this like an unnoticed cancer that will kill you later, or more like a heart attack...?

Thanks for your answer.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using XDA

You're probably fine. Losing root is not necessarily related to emmc corruption.
 

Latoc

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2010
347
94
You're probably fine. Losing root is not necessarily related to emmc corruption.

Thanks for your answer.

I have not lost root or had any problem when I was using the different ICS roms, it's just that I am worried I might have screwed my phone without noticing it YET...

Fingers crossed.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using XDA
 
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    A bit more information:
    The way flash memory works, it needs to be erased before writing to it. This is a bit different than spinning magnetic disks, where you just overwrite it. Writing new data to a blank disk and writing data over existing data were identical in performance.

    As a result, with magnetic disks, the classic way of deleting a file or formatting a partition was just to delete references to it - the actual file contents would still be there. On flash, this was not optimal for performance because writing to blank blocks is much faster than writing to a block that has info on it because that block must be blanked first.

    Eventually, the TRIM command was added to various operating systems, such that when a partition was formatted or a file deleted, the OS could tell the flash controller that those blocks were no longer used and could be erased immediately. It makes the wear leveller's job easier to have a list of "unused" blocks.

    I believe MMC_CAP_ERASE is related to TRIM (I haven't had time to figure out the exact differences) - even with TRIM disabled, it seems to make a difference. Gingerbread kernels and I9100 ICS kernels don't support TRIM or ERASE. ICS kernels for SHW-M250S/K/L support ERASE - and these seem to have a risk of hardbricking or permanent eMMC damage when you do a large ERASE - confirmed for a wipe in CWM and any operation that wipes first, suspected for wiping in 3e recovery of a non-repacked leak kernel that is affected, and I suspect a large file deletion (such as a video file of hundreds of megabytes) may also be risky - but I'm not sure.

    It seems like ICS leaks for the Epic 4G Touch, AT&T Galaxy S II (SGH-I777), and the Galaxy Note (GT-N7000 and GT-I9220) have the same issue as the SHW-M250S/K/L kernels based on reports. Unfortunately leak kernels don't have source so there's no way to tell what changed, no way to know which ones are dangerous and which ones aren't. For this reason I don't trust any ICS leak kernels for the above devices.

    This may be a problem only for a small percentage of users - 1%, 2%, maybe as high as 5% - who knows. Other people are fine with the affected kernels - for example Task650 and ktoonsez never had any issues with the UCLD3 leak kernel, but others hardbricked. gokhanmoral was able to wipe multiple times with SiyahKernel 3.1rc6 (based on SHW-M250L ICS sources instead of GT-I9100 ICS sources), but others hardbricked or experienced permanent damage when wiping.

    Right now, MMC_CAP_ERASE seems to be the suspect - but no one can be entirely sure without:
    Source code for leaks of affected devices that don't have source (Note, E4GT, I777)
    Taking dangerous risks such as trying to reproduce the problem - if you reproduce it, it's time for a motherboard replacement.

    The only thing we know for sure is that the GT-I9100 ICS leaks and official releases seem safe, as are kernels built from the I9100 Update4 source drop, as are all known Gingerbread kernels for any device.
    8
    I am still unsure what kernels are a problem or is it all N7000 ICS roms

    Right now:
    Any Gingerbread kernel is OK
    The only current ICS kernel for N7000 that is built from I9100 source is DAFUQ (name might change with the next release... My Touchwizz kernels no longer can be considered "daily driver" since I usually run CM9). Others are welcome to fork my source if they wish.
    Anything ICS-based that is a repack of a leak kernel is DANGEROUS.

    I'll work with xplodWILD to get CM9 builds going soon, hopefully this weekend, using a kernel built from I9100 sources which seems to be safe.
    7
    But these kernels were not supposed to get outside of their labs ? Did they ?
    The SHW-M250S/K/L sources not only got out of the labs, but were officially released by Samsung.

    This source code base and the SiyahKernel 3.1rc6 debacle over in the I9100 forums is the best "smoking gun" pointing to a kernel bug - When Siyah was rebased on the M250L sources with NO changes to recovery other than swapping /emmc and /sdcard, people started hardbricking in the exact same manner as the hardbricks encountered here - device freezing during a wipe followed by either damaged unusable partitions or a full hardbrick, with the device not being recoverable by JTAG recovery services.

    When gokhanmoral returned to the I9100 update4 source base, using the exact same recovery - no more problems.

    my understanding is that there is a problem in the way the exynos hardware handles the trim function, not the function itself.
    Yes, although it's actually a relative of TRIM (ERASE) that seems to be at play here. Samsung disabled TRIM in their latest M250L source base but it didn't solve the problem.

    My guess is that there's a bug in the flash chip or the kernel routines for erasing a chip that only happens when a large number of blocks are erased simultaneously - which is why it usually happens during a wipe.

    Hmm... crud... Looks like Gingerbread kernels support ERASE but are safe. Probably ERASE capability is interacting badly with something else... Great, this makes it harder to determine whether a future source drop is safe or not.

    What we know:
    It happens with current SHW-M250* sources
    It never seems to happen with kernels built from the I9100 Update4 source base
    It happens with leaks for this device, Epic 4G Touch, and SGH-I777 (AT&T GSII)
    It typically happens during an operation (such as a wipe) that erases a very large block of data
    Devices bricked in this way are so severely damaged that JTAG recovery is not able to fix them

    What we don't know:
    Exactly how it happens
    How to determine a kernel is "safe" other than track record - this means that any future kernel release coming from Samsung could be dangerous, we have no way of knowing
    6
    don't lower your hopes down, I've seen countless and numerous times of Bricked Notes being revived and restored thru JTAG. This process is the much low level process you can get of restoring your Note into it's normal process. I don't see why your Note can't be restored if it's done thru JTAG.

    (Not unless you have a broken ICs or chipsets already, which contitutes a hardware failure and that's the time you may have to replace it.)

    JTAG is trusted already and proven to restore almost all bricked Notes.

    Just from my own experiences..

    Cheers ;)
    However, there's mounting evidence that kernels from the following category can cause permanent damage to the eMMC chip, in a manner that JTAG recovery is not possible:
    All Epic 4G Touch (SPH-D710) ICS leaks
    All GT-N7000 ICS leaks
    SGH-I777 UCLD3 ICS leak (likely all ICS leaks)
    SHW-M250S/L/K official releases along with anything built from the source code for those releases
    SiyahKernel 3.1rc6 for I9100 is in this category due to being built from SHW-M250L update4 sources - all other SiyahKernel releases should be fine.

    Right now the suspicion is that it is due to Samsung enabling MMC_CAP_ERASE in the MMC driver for these kernels and the eMMC chip or Exynos hardware having some sort of flaw related to handling MMC ERASE commands (a performance feature that allows the wear leveler to erase a block in advance and flag it as such, rather than erase-before-write when writing), however this is not yet confirmed. The most likely situations that will cause damage are ones that involve a heavy MMC ERASE workload:
    CWM wipes and Nandroid restores (which wipe first) - confirmed
    Wipes in 3e recovery - suspected
    Deletion of any large file during normal operation may also cause this to happen - suspected but not confirmed

    Kernels that so far do not appear to be affected:
    GT-I9100 ICS leaks
    GT-I9100 ICS official releases
    Anything built off of the GT-I9100 update4 source code release
    5
    every time i consider bumping to a Custom ICS I see a thread like this or some issue that is a showstopper for me.

    I'm glad I haven't yet had ICS.