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Thinking of replacing my Note with a windows tablet...

7th April 2015, 04:23 PM |#31  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

My point is that I cannot and would not even consider a tablet with less than 250 ppi (and to be fair, not even one with less than 300 ppi on text) as my tablet. So even though one can be accustomed to lower resolutions it automatically leads him/her to less reading (which to me is a no-no).

I have to say that I have easily become accustomed to the lower resolution/PPI (virtually instantaneously), and because of the significant increase in usability of the T100 over the Note 2014, I'm actually reading more -- both through an internet browser, as well as dedicated eReader applications. I think it's because PPI is overly emphasized in specs bragging. I think it's the right combination of specs that makes for the best display. 600PPI on a HD screen resolution look great in the specs, but it's a complete waste in the real world. So a display with a proper combination (in no specific order) of angle of view, brightness/contrast, PPI, resolution, color, power consumption, etc., can easily be excellent, even when compared side-by-side with a high PPI display. There definitely has to be a lot of that going on with the T100, because I admit to being severely spoiled by the Note 2014 display. I do notice a difference, even when I'm not comparing them side-by-side. However, just picking up the T100 and using it, I have yet to think, "Wow, this display really sucks." I actually haven't even thought about the display difference until you mentioned it in this thread. But I'm definitely not reading less -- I'm reading more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

One of the being the lack of a pen. I may not use it all the time, but if I go into a tablet without a Wacom digitizer I would honestly miss it. I like to annotate my pdfs. Sure touch annotation is a thing but since I'm part of a lot of lectures , pen annotation is better. Also it's great when used as mouse pointer on the go.

You're preaching to the choir here, because I'm a long-time stylus user. I come from the ancient days of Palm devices, which were all stylus based. When my children got their first iPhones, I actually laughed at them. At the time, I was using a Palm Treo 755p (which has a stylus and a thumb keyboard), and I simply could not believe that any manufacturer would be stupid enough to make a phone with a touchscreen. I guess the industry knew what they were doing, but that doesn't mean that I agree with it. And for the most part, I still feel that way. So, when the Note phones (and tablet) with their S-pens came along, it immediately caught my attention.

But although the S-pen is the superior handwriting tool, I don't feel that it is the best system navigation tool or even the most precise drawing tool -- I think that title still belongs to the mouse, just like the best text input tool is the keyboard (and I don't mean the onscreen keyboard). So, although I personally feel a stylus is a good thing to have, I think that a keyboard and mouse are a better thing to have in most situations, and I definitely feel that a mouse/keyboard are far more productive overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

My last issue is the difference between "apps" and "applications". You're right it's not as big of a difference as many would call it (applications are not completely unusable on a touch screen, I often "beam" my windows 8.1 desktop into my tablet and it's pretty usable), but you're wrong in thinking that they're equivalent. I've measured myself in trying to find a file into windows file explorer (through splashtop) and esexplorer. I was much faster in the "app", and most of always prefer the app if I have the choice of the two.

That is because apps have GUIs made for touch, while applications are made for mice. In windows 8 there was a great stride forwards in usability but we're not there yet. So, yeah, apps are better than applications (as far as usability goes) but they probably won't be for long. So I get your protestations in that it's not much of a problem.

Also I get your point that applications can do more. But to be fair the two applications that I use the most (Eclipse and Gimp) already exist in android via Linux on framebuffer. If I *absolutely* needed more applications on the go more regularly I can see why a Windows machine would be a better choice.

Oh and another thing about apps (since you mentioned of it too). I find MxPlayer better in fact than any PC media player, simply because of its ease of use (touch based controls) and capacity to play pretty much anything. I much prefer to play my local library into my tablet than into my PC for that reason alone (almost)

.

Again, I'm someone who touches my screen as little as possible, so apps have very little benefit to me because they are almost entirely designed for touch. I open my T100 to the Windows 8.1 start screen, and what's the first thing I do? Usually, I type. Because I don't have to scroll/swipe through screens, menus, icons, tiles, etc., with my fingers, greasing up my screen -- all I have to do is type, "Chrome" on the hardware keyboard and then just double-tap the touchpad mouse and never touch the screen. The touchpad mouse can also be configured to handle most, if not all, touchscreen functions, like scrolling, page turns, pinch zoom, swiping, selecting, etc.

With regard to the Splashtop comparison, you'd have to admit that's a rather slanted test. You're using a touch-based tablet to stream-access a desktop OS that is likely in a full non-touch gui configuration, and then saying that it's more difficult to navigate? Of course it is under those circumstances. However, I think you could find/access the file faster if you were sitting in front of your desktop, using the keyboard and mouse, which is what I have access to with the T100. Even though I've always had full access to my desktop files from my Note 2014 (and Note phone), anytime I'm doing anything remotely close to heavy file manipulation, I will just get up and go to my desktop rather than finger my way through it on my tablet or phone. It's faster, you can see more files at one time, less chance of error because a mouse cursor is a lot more precise than a fingertip, use keyboard shortcuts for cutting/pasting, etc. Now I can get all this on my T100 tablet, so I will have to go to the desktop PC far less for file manipulation.

Now, if you want to touch the screen, you definitely can in any gui. With Windows you can simply increase the font size, toolbars, buttons, etc., to make it more touch friendly (like an app or like Android/iOS), but to me that's going backwards because that's exactly what's "wrong" with apps over applications. In order to make an app touch friendly, you have to increase the size of the gui components to allow finger use over a much more precise mouse pointer use. As someone who rarely touches the screen as long as I have a mouse (or stylus), I would much rather keep the screen real estate by not increasing the size of the gui components. That actually allows me to take better advantage of a high resolution screen, instead of using large finger sized icons.

I've been using MXPlayer since it first came out, so I can definitely say that it has only relatively recently become what it is today. Prior to MXPlayer becoming what it is today, desktop media players were always the vastly superior solution, and in terms of codecs and the ability to literally play anything, especially any brand new formats, the Windows players still are at the top of the heap. You're citing an app as "better" just because of a touch interface. Again, I don't particularly want to smudge/fingerprint up my screen right before or while I watch a movie. I'm perfectly fine with pressing a key on the keyboard, tapping the touchpad mouse, or even using a hardware button on the tablet rather than touching the screen. The keyboard/mouse dock also makes for a nice stand for watching a movie hands-free. I realize that's not ideal in all situations, but there is a reason why most tablet cases convert into a stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

So in short (and to sum up) I don't think most any of us have issues with the idea of windows tablet. It simply seems like an after thought which is still developing. There's a good chance that it would surpass android tablets in the near future, but that's a matter of technology (hardware) and certain design directions (even more touch friendly applications, low weight, small form factor, etc).

I feel that is what Android tablets (and iPads) are -- an afterthought that's stretching a phone OS beyond its limits in attempt to compete with the success of the iPad. At this point, I don't think that iPads and Android tablets can even compete with Windows tablets because they really aren't even in the same category. I think that Windows tablets come close to competing with desktops/laptops, while also being able to easily provide iPad/Android tablet functions, especially portability, while being much more powerful and capable.

That's been the big brain-poof for me in this, because I was a diehard tablet person, and hell bent on getting an Android tablet to be a laptop replacement. Now I know that's easily possible, but just not with the Android operating system.
 
 
7th April 2015, 06:32 PM |#32  
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@internetpilot:

While I do find the PPI battles (espec on phones) equally or probably more meaningless as/than you do, I must admit that there is also a sweet spot of best possible ppi/performance . Too high PPI you get dodgy performance, too low ppi you get dodgy ... text.

Steve Jobs had named retina any screen with higher than 300 ppi, while those are mere names and numbers on paper there's a hard physical limit that my eyesight adheres too. From my previous tablet as well as my computer monitors I had found out that pixelated text wears me down. As I said I'm an avid reader, but on about 2-3 hours it would set on and often cause me a headache. Imagine what a pleasant surprise it was to find that that doesn't happen with Note.

So -again- it's not a matter of looks (actually I don't find note's screen very "good looking", just clear), it's a matter of gaining the ability to read on a screen for almost as long as I would on physical paper. To me *that's* what is revolutionary above all. It doubled my productivity and it makes it quite obvious why I *can't * consider anything less (concerning PPIs).

I can see your point too, a lot of people don't *need* such high PPIs but in which case such a high res screen is an overkill anyway and they'd probably be better avoiding them given their impact in battery/performance.

But -again- let's say that windows tablets do offer such high PPIs (which they inevitably will). The lack of pen is not sth to scoff of for most note users. Obviously a mouse is a better pointing device but it greatly impacts portability (it needs a flat surface) and I'd think it's a sub par annotation device, certainly not as efficient as a pen. Well maybe -that last point- is influenced from people's extensive experience with pens and pencils but it -still- stands to reason to think of a pen like device as a better annotator.

Lastly, your last paragraphs only exuberated my belief that you ended up with a tablet by mistake. What you really always wanted was/is a hybrid. To me touch based navigation is central to an ultra portable, certainly quite more sophisticated form of human - machine interfacing compared to mice in *small* screens. It's equally bad form of interfacing on large screens though (too much movement is required).

I'd reiterate my Splashtop example. And yes splashtop does fully support windows 8 gestures and touch interfacing, it's no different than actually using a windows tablet. The only difference is that Windows do not run locally.

In my splashtop example I needed to find a specific file on a Nas folder. What I did was to open esexplorer swipe left, choose my NAS's icon, press search and search for the file in question. With windows, I had to open file explorer, go to network places , double click my NAS's and type the name of the file in question in the search bar.

Pretty much identical actions, but with touch the whole process was much faster as the icons are a lot bigger , no double clicking and equally fast search reults. That's why I find touch a better way to interface with machines, no in between device (mice) big icons so no "roaming on screen" , and most importantly gestures as shortcuts. Obviously you get to do less things as well, but you do them *faster*.

On this last point is actually why MxPlayer is ingenious. Navigating back or forth within a movie is just a flick of the finger , equivalent to roller up/down but with more control (depending on how fast or far you swipe). Same with subtitles placing or size, same with volume or brightness.

I understand that a lot of those is matter of taste, but it highlights the difference between one needing/wanting a tablet and one who needs/wants a laptop with tablet uses. To my eyes the differences are pretty sharp and the uses not very overlapping, so much so that I can readily tell apart who is who when people come to me asking for device recommendations.

You -my friend- belong well into the laptop/hybrid camp. Had I known you earlier I would had discouraged you from even buying a device like Note given how much it would disappoint you. I have equally discouraged people who came to me for tablet advice, I pretty much convinced them that -actually- what they want is not a tablet.

In my humble experience around 70-80% of people that think that they need a tablet actually don't . They either need a small laptop/convertible/hybrid or a large phone (phablets as they call them). In fact I pretty much only recommend tablets to people needing to replace their e-readers with a more high tech device and/or generally people whose primary concern is reading. Lest Windows tablets do *that* right (become better reading machines) and I would send even more people towards the windows direction...
7th April 2015, 11:08 PM |#33  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

While I do find the PPI battles (espec on phones) equally or probably more meaningless as/than you do, I must admit that there is also a sweet spot of best possible ppi/performance . Too high PPI you get dodgy performance, too low ppi you get dodgy ... text.

Yes, but said sweet spot for displays is definitely dependent on more factors than just PPI. I think the fact that the best industry standard eReader devices (Nook and Kindle) are each well below the 300 PPI mark, even the Kindle Fire HD and the Nook HD, both of which are 9" display devices. The 6" display on the Nook Simple is only 167 PPI, and the Kindle Paper White is 212 PPI, and those are both 100% dedicated reading devices. So I believe (and apparently so does the industry) that it's more than PPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

But -again- let's say that windows tablets do offer such high PPIs (which they inevitably will). The lack of pen is not sth to scoff of for most note users. Obviously a mouse is a better pointing device but it greatly impacts portability (it needs a flat surface) and I'd think it's a sub par annotation device, certainly not as efficient as a pen. Well maybe -that last point- is influenced from people's extensive experience with pens and pencils but it -still- stands to reason to think of a pen like device as a better annotator.

I suspect that these days people in general spend far more time with a mouse in their hand than a pen or pencil. Pretty much from high school on, people are using keyboards more than pens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

Lastly, your last paragraphs only exuberated my belief that you ended up with a tablet by mistake. What you really always wanted was/is a hybrid. To me touch based navigation is central to an ultra portable, certainly quite more sophisticated form of human - machine interfacing compared to mice in *small* screens. It's equally bad form of interfacing on large screens though (too much movement is required).

That seems to be simply a matter of configuration -- just set the acceleration on the mouse pointer to better fit the size of the screen, whether small or large. I wouldn't call a touch interface more sophisticated. It's actually more primitive like using your hands to eat instead of a fork. But again, a mouse (or touchpad) is now basically a second nature interface to electronics, probably even more than keyboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

I'd reiterate my Splashtop example. And yes splashtop does fully support windows 8 gestures and touch interfacing, it's no different than actually using a windows tablet. The only difference is that Windows do not run locally. In my splashtop example I needed to find a specific file on a Nas folder. What I did was to open esexplorer swipe left, choose my NAS's icon, press search and search for the file in question. With windows, I had to open file explorer, go to network places , double click my NAS's and type the name of the file in question in the search bar. Pretty much identical actions, but with touch the whole process was much faster as the icons are a lot bigger , no double clicking and equally fast search reults. That's why I find touch a better way to interface with machines, no in between device (mice) big icons so no "roaming on screen" , and most importantly gestures as shortcuts. Obviously you get to do less things as well, but you do them *faster*.

Did you use Windows 8 gestures during your test? It doesn't sound like you did, but not that it would really help any, especially since I seriously doubt that your desktop that you're accessing through Splashtop is a touchscreen, and if it's not then not all the touchscreen features of Windows 8 will be enabled on that desktop, even through Splashtop. You'll only have access to the touchscreen features that you can do with a mouse.

Regardless, I think you're exaggerating the process on the Windows side or else you just don't know about some features of Windows. I also have a NAS and because it is a NAS rather than just a network share, I allowed Windows on the T100 to index the NAS. So to find a file on my NAS from my Windows tablet, I simply start typing the file name (or partial) on the Start screen and it finds it, pretty much instantly. No opening a file manager app, no swiping, no tapping, no enabling a search function....all you have to do is type the first few characters of the file name and then choose the file from the presented list. I'm very proficient with Android and Android apps, and I know I couldn't get a file from my NAS faster than that. That same search indexing works with cloud storage as well as local storage on the tablet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

On this last point is actually why MxPlayer is ingenious. Navigating back or forth within a movie is just a flick of the finger , equivalent to roller up/down but with more control (depending on how fast or far you swipe). Same with subtitles placing or size, same with volume or brightness.

There's an app in the Windows PC App Store called Metro Media Player Pro that is basically the closest thing I've seen to MXPlayer for Windows. The free version plays most formats, but It costs $2 for MKV support. I'm pretty sure I paid a lot more than that for the "Pro" version of MXPlayer. Anyway, it is completely Metro UI gesture based, and plays everything I've thrown at it that I previously played with MXPlayer. It also supports subs. All that being said, though, I mostly use VLC because it will DEFINITELY play everything, and handles more types of subs. Also VLC does support basic touch gestures -- swiping left/right moves you around in the movie, swiping up and down controls volume, tapping the screen pauses/plays, etc. It's the same thing with the touchpad mouse, which again would prevent fingerprints on the screen when I'm watching a movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

You -my friend- belong well into the laptop/hybrid camp. Had I known you earlier I would had discouraged you from even buying a device like Note given how much it would disappoint you.

Actually, you wouldn't have known or been able to tell me that, because even I didn't know.

I bought my first Android tablet (Acer Iconia A500) several years ago, and was rather happy with it. I was also elated with the Note 2014, especially because of the S-pen, and because by then I also already had a taste of Note through my Note 2 phone. After reading numerous reviews, I never even so much as glanced in the direction of Windows tablets, because everyone did nothing except talk them down. There was even an Acer Windows tablet that came with a really nice keyboard dock. I was not interested. I suspect that I do (or did) more with my Android tablets than 99% of tablet owners. It was purely on a whim I purchased the Asus T100 to try, and ended up completely blown away once I got over the initial annoyance of the Windows 8 UI, as well as finally got myself out of the app centric touch UI mindset of Android. It was only then that it finally dawned on me that this was not simply a mobile version of Windows that came with similar limitations as Android and iOS -- it was a full desktop OS. That revolutionized the whole tablet category for me. I now view the T100 as a tablet, while both the Note 2014 and the Acer A500 are now basically just 10" phones to me. That's why I regret buying the Note 2014 (especially at that price). It doesn't help that the T100 was only $250 new. For me, there's just no reason to accept and deal with the compromises associated with Android on a tablet, when I can just use a real desktop OS on the exact same formfactor. I don't feel that Android is useless -- I like it well enough on my phone, but I just don't see the purpose of it on a tablet device anymore.
8th April 2015, 06:24 AM |#34  
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@internetpilot: I'd try to be as brief as possible since I'm low on time.

First the PPI needed for comfortable extended reading on a back lit display is quite different than the one needed on a front lit display. I don't know the biology of it, but I do know that Backlit displays do tire my (and many people's ) eyes sooner, so the need of clear text is even more pronounced than it is in front lit displays. Like I said I found my sweet spot empirically so I wouldn't be too presumptuous to think that I know other people's sweet spot, for multiple reasons in fact, apart from the condition of their eyesight, it also has to do with their reading habits. To those that I *know* that they're avid readers I always recommend 250+ PPI screens just to be on the safe side.

My 2nd point is about the importance of touch. See I was careful enough to specify that touch is best for small displays. I think your analogy with food nails it. I find tablet use like a snack , something that can and should be done anywhere, on the couch, before getting up from bed ... in the bathroom. Pretty much any place/condition that a computer could not fullfill. I find my computer use like a full meal. You wouldn't eat an apple with a fork (I assume you wouldn't ), you wouldn't use a tablet with mice either. I think it defeats the purpose.

And yes I did use all windows gestures, taking an app from the left edge of the screen and snap it on the right. Or tapping the hot corners, or long tap for right click, or two fingers too scroll, a lot of them are ingenious but nowhere near the ingenuity of having the capacity to customize a robust gesture navigation system (via the xposed module) which allows me to do pretty much anything. 3 - fingers up , shows recents, five fingers "in", goes to home , etc, etc.

The simple truth of the matter is that android is made for touch and mice are an afterthought (even though supported) and windows is made for mice (even though touch is supported). In 90% of my use cases I don't even have a surface to use a mouse so, mice are out for me, so you can see why it's important to me that robust touch support is important. Windows is still learning on this regard, hopefully things would be a lot better there in a few short years because that alone may tempt me to change platforms.

BTW this very question "in which places/situations do you mean to use your tablet" was what led me to drive people away from androids. Most people use it as they used to use their netbooks, so obviously recommending the netbook's descendant (convertibles/hybrids) is what the "doctor orders" . I honestly do think that you'd be an easy mark for my identification process, no disrespect there.

Cheers.
9th April 2015, 01:40 AM |#35  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

My 2nd point is about the importance of touch. See I was careful enough to specify that touch is best for small displays. I think your analogy with food nails it. I find tablet use like a snack , something that can and should be done anywhere, on the couch, before getting up from bed ... in the bathroom. Pretty much any place/condition that a computer could not fullfill. I find my computer use like a full meal. You wouldn't eat an apple with a fork (I assume you wouldn't ), you wouldn't use a tablet with mice either. I think it defeats the purpose.

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

The simple truth of the matter is that android is made for touch and mice are an afterthought (even though supported) and windows is made for mice (even though touch is supported). In 90% of my use cases I don't even have a surface to use a mouse so, mice are out for me, so you can see why it's important to me that robust touch support is important. Windows is still learning on this regard, hopefully things would be a lot better there in a few short years because that alone may tempt me to change platforms.

I wouldn't normally eat an apple with a fork, but I would only eat a caramel apple if it was on a stick, because otherwise it would be a gooey, smeary mess, much like how touch screens end up. Haha.

But seriously, again, I've been a big proponent of the stylus since the days of the Palm PDA, and to this day (as I clean my Note 2 phone screen like 10x per day) I do not understand why basically the world has so willingly jumped on the touchscreen bandwagon when what's actually happening is that we have these beautiful, hi-res tablet and phone displays that we purposely smear up with fingerprints and hand grease/oils every single time we use the device, completely negating/ruining the view of the hi-res display. I just don't see any logic in that at all, and it boggles my mind that the touchscreen is so successful. It's one thing if it's literally just a voice phone or just a music player or a universal TV remote, but modern devices are extremely visual based, so why smear it all up? A perfect example is how important PPI is to you. Put a half day's worth of finger prints/smears on any display, and there goes your high PPI.

This is why I'm so happy with the T100's touchpad mouse, and let me emphasize TOUCHPAD mouse. This isn't a normal mouse that requires a flat surface as you keep mentioning. In my opinion/preference, a touchpad mouse should be at the bottom of every device screen, and that's the only part of the screen that should be regularly touched. To me that is just such a better design, and shows more respect for the hi-res screen than smearing it all up. The T100 with the keyboard/touchpad mouse dock is only 2.5 lbs, and most of the 1lb that the dock weighs is just purposely dedicated weight to allow the docked tablet to stay upright and not tip over. I can easily hold the docked T100 in one hand and navigate around the touchpad mouse with the other hand, standing, sitting, wherever. And again, the touchpad mouse has the same 5-point multi-touch features that the T100's touch display does, so I'm using the same gestures with multiple fingers, but it just on a much smaller surface (instead of having to reach all over 10") that has no responsibility for displaying anything that would be hindered by fingerprints or smears. And a stylus or e-pen cannot do all the navigation/manipulation that a touchpad (or touch screen) can do, so a stylus really isn't even close to a replacement for a touchpad mouse. A stylus does have purpose (handwriting, annotation, freehand drawing, etc.), but since there's really no way for it to do any type of multi-touch gesture, it's really not a touch substitute.

I liken this whole touchscreen thing to when I'm about to sit down in front of my TV at home to watch a movie. I don't get up, smear my hands all over the TV screen, and then sit down to watch my movie. So why would anyone want to do that on a tablet? I do realize that I'm apparently one of the few who feel this way, but I really do feel like it's the most obvious thing in the world, and I flat out do not understand why anyone would want smear up their visual display rather than just use a 2" square touchpad mouse instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

And yes I did use all windows gestures, taking an app from the left edge of the screen and snap it on the right. Or tapping the hot corners, or long tap for right click, or two fingers too scroll, a lot of them are ingenious but nowhere near the ingenuity of having the capacity to customize a robust gesture navigation system (via the xposed module) which allows me to do pretty much anything. 3 - fingers up , shows recents, five fingers "in", goes to home , etc, etc.

The Xposed module is a rather sophisticated (and temperamental) hack/mod to the Android system, and requires root, and rooting Android devices is becoming more and more of a problem these days, as manufacturers are spending a lot of time and effort locking down Android. Look at my current issue -- I have a rooted but otherwise stock ROM/recovery on my Note 2014, but I cannot accept even the latest minor OTA update simply because I'm rooted. I either have to go through the Kies fiasco or sign up for an account with the Sammobile.com SPAMwagon and Odin it on my device. I'm a 25-year career IT guy, so yes I have the experience and knowledge to do all that, but it's become a matter of do I want to and should I have to? Even with my hi-tech experience, I'm becoming leery of even just rooting Android devices these days. I definitely would not recommend that any non-tech person even think about using Xposed. But apparently that's what it takes for Android to become a better touch device than Windows. Honestly, without Xposed, it seems that Windows may have a few more touch features than Android typically does.

Another thing worth mentioning in the OS comparison is windows. I've used my Note 2's multiwindow feature probably all of 5 times in the three years I've owned the device, and all of those times was to show someone that my Android phone could display multiple windows. I've never actually used the feature other than to show it off, and that's because it's relatively worthless. Now, enter the much larger screened Note 2014 tablet, and I actually have used the feature more, but honestly not very much because it's the exact same relatively poor implementation. It's just easier to long-press the home button, and switch between apps that are open the background. Windows is so named for a reason -- real windows, as many as you want, in virtually any arrangement, and true multitasking, and that's stock, right out of the box, no rooting required, no special modules flashed, etc.
9th April 2015, 07:59 AM |#36  
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@internetpilot:

Again I'll be brief:

You can always apply oleophobic coating to your phone/tablet to avoid the smudges, it's way more efficient than always cleaning it off. Having said that I (most of always) use a tablet indoors (home, or a cafe, or a friend's house) while I use my phone outdoors so an oleophobic coating is mostly useful to a phone rather than a tablet. As long as there is not an intense (external) source of light (i.e. the sun) smudges mostly do not show, and since I wash my hands way too often -anyway- they're minimal -anyhow- in my case. I can see though how this can be a problem to some, so -again- it's good to raise this issue to people before making a decision.

By now -I think- though we have established why a Windows machine is a very bad choice to some while an Android is a rather bad choice to others. I think you can clearly see how our use scenarios are very different. Whether it is a mouse or a touchpad, it makes little difference you do use it like you'd use a netbook. You can't use it as a replacement of a book, for example the very issue of holding it on a landscape defeats the purpose of a tablet to me. It was very smart of Samsung to minimize the side bezels. The way that I mostly hold my tablet is on a portrait mode from the "top" bezel. That way the greatest mass of the text I'm reading is vertical not horizontal, that alone turns it a valuable reader, you can't do that if you use a mouse or a touchpad, again veeery different use scenarios.

You basically use your tablet like you'd use a netbook, that's wht I'm trying to tell you from the start, so I don't see why you should call it a tablet, yet it is in the same form factor, but the usage patterns are night and day. The things you do on you machine I'd rarely ever do to an ultraportable, the things I do you'd rarely ever do as well (or you do them in a very different form). We basically have two different machines for very different purposes. And *that's* the difference of a tablet and a windows tablet. One is a "big" touch device, the other is small laptop.

And -no- it's not the same as a phone, I can't read on a phone, at least not for long. I can't "multiwindow" on a phone, not even for a while it's already quite a small screen, I can't be as productive on a phone. But then again I don't *expect* to be very productive on a tablet either, it's only for one of those emergencies. It's not an one device to be it all. It's a very specific device for very specified uses and as long as those are less than important to you you'd do well to go into sth more conventional like a traditional laptop on a small form factor. I don't see where we should disagree, at least I don't on account of how useful a windows device can be.

Tablets are not for most. Phones, laptops are. Tablets and Desktops (the devices that I use) have more specified uses. Most people are ok with a larg*ish* phone and a laptop. I've tried that and now I'm much happier (small phone - "large" tablet - "large" desktop).
But anyhow this thread is not about us, but we're indicative of how differing the two crowds are and yes I support that many people should go into a Windows Machine, they shouldn't have been "here" in the first place, that's my point actually. So I agree with the OP of this thread, I merely don't think that his experience is a blanket experience (and most probably he doesn't either).
9th April 2015, 11:15 PM |#37  
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Oleophobic coatings are ridiculously temporary, and only last about 2-3 months (at best) and usually a lot less time. Also, as the coatings start to wear off (literally after the first week), it starts affecting the display quality more than if you never applied it in the first place. Screen protectors are a similar poor solution -- anti-glare ones that show less fingerprints greatly reduce display quality, and they have to be replaced as they get scratched, start peel on the edges, cloud over, etc. It's difficult to argue that the best solution is simply not to touch the display at all or at least as little as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevethegreat

Whether it is a mouse or a touchpad, it makes little difference you do use it like you'd use a netbook. You can't use it as a replacement of a book, for example the very issue of holding it on a landscape defeats the purpose of a tablet to me. It was very smart of Samsung to minimize the side bezels. The way that I mostly hold my tablet is on a portrait mode from the "top" bezel. That way the greatest mass of the text I'm reading is vertical not horizontal, that alone turns it a valuable reader, you can't do that if you use a mouse or a touchpad, again veeery different use scenarios.

You basically use your tablet like you'd use a netbook, that's wht I'm trying to tell you from the start, so I don't see why you should call it a tablet, yet it is in the same form factor, but the usage patterns are night and day. The things you do on you machine I'd rarely ever do to an ultraportable, the things I do you'd rarely ever do as well (or you do them in a very different form). We basically have two different machines for very different purposes. And *that's* the difference of a tablet and a windows tablet. One is a "big" touch device, the other is small laptop.

I call the T100 a tablet because it is a tablet. You continue to call me a netbook/laptop person. I am not. I have never owned or even used either. The Asus Transformer T100 is not a netbook or a "small laptop" -- it is a tablet with a keyboard /touchpad dock. Using your Note 2014 in portrait mode all the time for reading doesn't make you a Kindle user, so I'm not sure why using the keyboard dock that was included with my Windows tablet makes me a netbook/laptop user. With the push of one button, I can simply remove the T100 from its keyboard/touchpad dock, and it is a fully functioning touchscreen tablet, just like the Note 2014 (only more capable). Actually, unlike the Note 2014, the T100 does not have any buttons on the front of the tablet, so rotating the T100 into portrait orientation has just that much fewer "buts" to it. And again, I read more on the T100 than I ever did on the Note 2014, and yes, that's usually in landscape mode, and I've read entire eBooks this way. Turning a tablet to portrait orientation is simply your personal preference for reading -- not necessarily the better way to read.

You should take a peek at the accessories forum for any tablet on XDA -- it's full of posts looking for the best keyboard, keyboard case, keyboard dock, etc. I am by far not the only one who wants to use a keyboard with their tablet -- in fact, you're probably the only one who doesn't. The T100's keyboard/touchpad dock is the best tablet keyboard solution I've seen to-date.

In the end, my only point in posting to this thread at all was to correct the misconception (a misconception that you continued for several messages) that all Windows tablets are like the Surface line and come with all the associated negatives. That's simply not the case. The T100 has virtually none of the negatives of the Surface, and has numerous positives over any other 10" tablet, including the Note 2014, the Tab S, Tab 4, Acer A500, and iPad 1 & 2 (all of which I own and can therefore directly compare). Now you're just repeatedly posting that the T100 isn't a tablet, it's a netbook. Honestly, given the original topic, and given my original contribution to this thread, I'm not really sure why you have felt the need to post much of anything that you have, especially directed toward me, because it seems to be a lot of incorrect assumption and personal preference rather than anything factual or informative about the Surface or Windows tablets.
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