Nokia and Microsoft discussing WP7 on Nokia says Eldar

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doministry

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Sep 25, 2008
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Bytom, Poland
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Nokia has to do something to save their sinking smartphone ship.
They failed miserably. Sorry but latest Symbians are just horrible.
I played with N8. It was so awful compared to other leading OSes.

But they can also choose Android route.

I rather wait for SE to join WP7.
 

z33dev33l

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2008
2,885
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Austin, TX
Nokia has to do something to save their sinking smartphone ship.
They failed miserably. Sorry but latest Symbians are just horrible.
I played with N8. It was so awful compared to other leading OSes.

But they can also choose Android route.

I rather wait for SE to join WP7.

Might I ask why? not trying to be offensive but I haven't seen them release a decent looking phone since the walkman series
 
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geoken

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Jun 6, 2009
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If this goes through it will be the first time I've had any interest in a Nokia phone for quite some time.
 

k2reefa

Member
Nov 29, 2008
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0
HTC and other manufactures(HTC first as this is XDA) are using multiple OS on there phones why would it be such a bad thing for nokia to do similar, i am aware they are hevily invested in symbian, but sales wise i cant see how this would hurt the bank balence
 

vangrieg

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2007
2,500
45
Moscow
However I do not see the real benefit for Nokia. They're gonna lose most of their identity in such move.

Actually, there's a lot of benefit for Nokia in such a move. OEM quest for identity in software is understandable but awfully misguided. They (Nokia, SE, and even HTC) are strong in manufacturing and, more or less, design. And instead of focusing on these strengths what did they rush to do? Make software. Why in the world would they do it better than Microsofts, Apples and Googles of this world, with tons of IP, skills, competences, cash and tens of thousands of developers worldwide? They can't. It's not cost effective, and it's a failed strategy leading to mediocre produts. Nokia is a testament to this, SE is another one, and Motorola almost disappeared by stretching themselves too thin until they dumped their fruitless efforts and joined an "ecosystem" (God, I hate this word).

One may argue that HTC is a successful example, but it's early to tell. Sense (and previously TouchFlo) helped them sell more phones, but that was when the OSes they used were deficient in so many ways and looked ugly. The more Android develops the more Sense will be turning into an annoyance that slows down phones and delays updates. Or look at SE. Their vast "differentiation" efforts are making them a sick joke in the Android world - they constantly delay phones and release them with the-day-before-yesterday's OS versions. Is it helping them? I don't think so. Or look at Samsung, they are successful, but do you think people buy their phones because of its brilliant whatever-it's-called UI thingie? Would it prevent anyone from switching to an HTC? Anyone? Moreover, if Nokia came to MS, MS themselves would build them a custom UI if need be.

And really, wouldn't you wish they spent money and resources on developing better phones? Purchasing better cameras? Faster NAND flash? Developing better drivers?

Some ten years ago, nobody cared about operating systems on phones - did it prevent Nokia from differentiating itself? Not at all. And it's not like people bought their phones because of some brilliant UI or "value adding" software. They bought their phones because they were thinner, lighter, better looking, whatever. I just don't see why they can't concentrate on that and try to kick some Taiwanese butts.

So, here's your (and their) benefit, you name it yourself:

PS: Personally, as an ordinary consumer, I also would like to see the quality of Nokia hardware combined with WP7.

Does anybody remember the history of HTC? They were an ODM nobody knew. At that time, MS decided that mobiles should be smarter and started building an OS for this. They tried to approach the big guys like Nokia, SE and Motorola, of course. And got rejected vehemently. Because Nokia e.a. thought that software on phones is too important to have it made by someone else. They were scared ****less of the very idea that people may buy phones because they run Windows rather than because they are made by Nokia. So MS went to an unknown ODM in Taiwan, while Nokia tried to go it alone (well, in a consortium with others, which of course shattered into pieces). Were are we now? Moto - almost disappeared, and still struggling. SE - performing poorly. Nokia - losing market share, almost non-present in high end. HTC? Making almost as much money as Nokia. Samsung? Doing rather well, too. Lesson? Don't try to beat others in a game you can't play well.

Now, the big question is, of course, which "ecosystem" to join. WP7 is unproven, new, doesn't allow customization (although I'm sure MS can be pushed over a bit should Nokia wish to join), costs money. On the other hand, it's fully supported by MS, looks and works better, you can make agreements with the maker. Android - free, open, all you need is download source code and have a go, huge market share already. On the downside, crowded market, attracts tons of low-end makers (thus prices are bound to go down), needs a lot of work, using it doesn't put the maker into any contractual obligations whatsoever. They can dump it tomorrow if they wish and you have nobody to complain to. Dubious IP cleanness.

And then there's a fundamental business model conflict between Nokia and Google. For Google, the more phones can access google.com, the better. It doesn't matter how they work, how they do it, who makes them, whatever. This is best achieved when phones are dirt cheap. So they'll always be happy when cheap phones pop up everywhere with their OS. For MS it's vastly different. They can charge money for their software only when the products using it are expensive so the price can just "hide" in the total price. Thus MS (and Apple) are working towards the same goal with Nokia, while Google will work against it. Google already hurt Nokia, by the way and cost them hundreds of millions (if not billions, I don't remember) in satnav. Nothing personal, that's just what Google's business.

I don't know what I would choose, really. There are pros and cons to both. But MS is a much more natural partner for Nokia, there's no doubt about it.
 
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doministry

Senior Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Bytom, Poland
doministry.blogspot.com
Might I ask why? not trying to be offensive but I haven't seen them release a decent looking phone since the walkman series
Well it is a matter of taste maybe.
But since WM6.1 days they were the only ones to design a really good looking and functional devices with great cameras etc. So X1, X2 were for me best looking smartphones. HTC design - in comparison is awful besides HD2, and the same goes with Nokia for me. Especially their smartphones look and feel terrible.
As for SE, X10 and Arc also look great.
But it's personal.
 

z33dev33l

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2008
2,885
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Austin, TX
Well it is a matter of taste maybe.
But since WM6.1 days they were the only ones to design a really good looking and functional devices with great cameras etc. So X1, X2 were for me best looking smartphones. HTC design - in comparison is awful besides HD2, and the same goes with Nokia for me. Especially their smartphones look and feel terrible.
As for SE, X10 and Arc also look great.
But it's personal.

Due primarily to the G1 and HD2 I was one of the huge HTC guys who would only buy HTC but now I'm more open. I guess though that when the X1- came out I had my HD2 so the x10 with its old OS and all didn't really appeal to me, my wife has it now and loves it but I guess it just never hooked me.
 

vetvito

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2007
3,154
181
Vangrieg, that made a lot of sense. I can agree with that.

However you will see no improvement in hardware if Nokia joins. You will get another HD7, surround, focus. No difference from the other OEMs.

Symbian^3 pawns WP7 in every way except smoothness. More apps, more APIs, better hardware, etc. Dropbox, skydrive sites are fully integrated no separate apps needed. RDP support. The list goes on...

No portrait QWERTY sucks though.
 

doministry

Senior Member
Sep 25, 2008
4,241
432
Bytom, Poland
doministry.blogspot.com
Due primarily to the G1 and HD2 I was one of the huge HTC guys who would only buy HTC but now I'm more open. I guess though that when the X1- came out I had my HD2 so the x10 with its old OS and all didn't really appeal to me, my wife has it now and loves it but I guess it just never hooked me.
What the hell are you talking about.
X1 was launched Whole Year before HD2.
It was a strongest WM device at this time. Than HTC devices appeared like Touch Pro 2.
 
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z33dev33l

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2008
2,885
206
35
Austin, TX
What the hell are you talking about.
X1 was launched Whole Year before HD2.
It was a strongest WM device at this time. Than HTC devices appeared like Touch Pro 2.

I meant to say x10, sorry, finger slipped and I hit the dash key instead. x1 was good for its time. I guess my opinion centralizes on the x10 and stuff... their skinning was terrible and the delays it caused in OS were just bad.
 

vangrieg

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2007
2,500
45
Moscow
Vangrieg, that made a lot of sense. I can agree with that.

However you will see no improvement in hardware if Nokia joins. You will get another HD7, surround, focus. No difference from the other OEMs.

Symbian^3 pawns WP7 in every way except smoothness. More apps, more APIs, better hardware, etc. Dropbox, skydrive sites are fully integrated no separate apps needed. RDP support. The list goes on...

No portrait QWERTY sucks though.

I think that if Nokia joined, it would have a say un terms of hardware. But to me it doesn't really matter what processors are used as long as the OS runs well. With WP7 I care about camera quality, build quality, design, all that stuff. And I never said I wanted a Nokia phone, by the way. I know a lot of people would buy it if it didn't run Symbian. Also, who says they can't keep Symbian for the low end?

As regards features, what can I say - by the time Nokia releases its first WP7 device (if it ever happens, I'm very skeptical), the feature set will be different.
 

vetvito

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2007
3,154
181
^We thought the same thing for HTC, Samsung and LG.

My guess is they will make a Windows tablet or Office on Symbian. Highly doubt a WP7 phone will come from this.

A OS that's not selling doesn't need a hardware provider that's not selling.
 

vangrieg

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2007
2,500
45
Moscow
I agree it was pretty, Sadly it caused a bit of lag and less device upgrades...

Exactly. So this is the recipe for a perfect smartphone: an OEM who knows a thing or two about [industrial] design and an OS with which this OEM can't meddle. Unrealistic but would be really great. The Nexus concept is getting there.
 

z33dev33l

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2008
2,885
206
35
Austin, TX
Exactly. So this is the recipe for a perfect smartphone: an OEM who knows a thing or two about [industrial] design and an OS with which this OEM can't meddle. Unrealistic but would be really great. The Nexus concept is getting there.

That makes sense. The nexus series would if they'd keep it with one equipment manufacturer. When the nexus one came out it was all revolutionary hardware. The nexus S was very slight improvements on a vibrant and didnt even feel as good as a captivate :/... I'm not saying I love HTC but they did have that concept down better.
 

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    I would imagine this would spark the platform in EU where Nokia is still a top brand.. in the US, Nokia had its hayday about 10 years ago but at least they could put price pressure on devices here as well :)
    2
    However I do not see the real benefit for Nokia. They're gonna lose most of their identity in such move.

    Actually, there's a lot of benefit for Nokia in such a move. OEM quest for identity in software is understandable but awfully misguided. They (Nokia, SE, and even HTC) are strong in manufacturing and, more or less, design. And instead of focusing on these strengths what did they rush to do? Make software. Why in the world would they do it better than Microsofts, Apples and Googles of this world, with tons of IP, skills, competences, cash and tens of thousands of developers worldwide? They can't. It's not cost effective, and it's a failed strategy leading to mediocre produts. Nokia is a testament to this, SE is another one, and Motorola almost disappeared by stretching themselves too thin until they dumped their fruitless efforts and joined an "ecosystem" (God, I hate this word).

    One may argue that HTC is a successful example, but it's early to tell. Sense (and previously TouchFlo) helped them sell more phones, but that was when the OSes they used were deficient in so many ways and looked ugly. The more Android develops the more Sense will be turning into an annoyance that slows down phones and delays updates. Or look at SE. Their vast "differentiation" efforts are making them a sick joke in the Android world - they constantly delay phones and release them with the-day-before-yesterday's OS versions. Is it helping them? I don't think so. Or look at Samsung, they are successful, but do you think people buy their phones because of its brilliant whatever-it's-called UI thingie? Would it prevent anyone from switching to an HTC? Anyone? Moreover, if Nokia came to MS, MS themselves would build them a custom UI if need be.

    And really, wouldn't you wish they spent money and resources on developing better phones? Purchasing better cameras? Faster NAND flash? Developing better drivers?

    Some ten years ago, nobody cared about operating systems on phones - did it prevent Nokia from differentiating itself? Not at all. And it's not like people bought their phones because of some brilliant UI or "value adding" software. They bought their phones because they were thinner, lighter, better looking, whatever. I just don't see why they can't concentrate on that and try to kick some Taiwanese butts.

    So, here's your (and their) benefit, you name it yourself:

    PS: Personally, as an ordinary consumer, I also would like to see the quality of Nokia hardware combined with WP7.

    Does anybody remember the history of HTC? They were an ODM nobody knew. At that time, MS decided that mobiles should be smarter and started building an OS for this. They tried to approach the big guys like Nokia, SE and Motorola, of course. And got rejected vehemently. Because Nokia e.a. thought that software on phones is too important to have it made by someone else. They were scared ****less of the very idea that people may buy phones because they run Windows rather than because they are made by Nokia. So MS went to an unknown ODM in Taiwan, while Nokia tried to go it alone (well, in a consortium with others, which of course shattered into pieces). Were are we now? Moto - almost disappeared, and still struggling. SE - performing poorly. Nokia - losing market share, almost non-present in high end. HTC? Making almost as much money as Nokia. Samsung? Doing rather well, too. Lesson? Don't try to beat others in a game you can't play well.

    Now, the big question is, of course, which "ecosystem" to join. WP7 is unproven, new, doesn't allow customization (although I'm sure MS can be pushed over a bit should Nokia wish to join), costs money. On the other hand, it's fully supported by MS, looks and works better, you can make agreements with the maker. Android - free, open, all you need is download source code and have a go, huge market share already. On the downside, crowded market, attracts tons of low-end makers (thus prices are bound to go down), needs a lot of work, using it doesn't put the maker into any contractual obligations whatsoever. They can dump it tomorrow if they wish and you have nobody to complain to. Dubious IP cleanness.

    And then there's a fundamental business model conflict between Nokia and Google. For Google, the more phones can access google.com, the better. It doesn't matter how they work, how they do it, who makes them, whatever. This is best achieved when phones are dirt cheap. So they'll always be happy when cheap phones pop up everywhere with their OS. For MS it's vastly different. They can charge money for their software only when the products using it are expensive so the price can just "hide" in the total price. Thus MS (and Apple) are working towards the same goal with Nokia, while Google will work against it. Google already hurt Nokia, by the way and cost them hundreds of millions (if not billions, I don't remember) in satnav. Nothing personal, that's just what Google's business.

    I don't know what I would choose, really. There are pros and cons to both. But MS is a much more natural partner for Nokia, there's no doubt about it.
    1
    In response to the question on WPCentral:
    Has Nokia hardware (in absence of their OS) been anything truly remarkable?

    YES!

    - The Nokia N95 had the BEST camera I have had the pleasure of using to date, it was an innovative slider sliding one way for a keypad and the other way for media controls

    - The Nokia N8 has a 12 megapixel camera which blows away anything else I've ever seen on a phone.

    I want my Nokia Windows Phone 7 phone with a 12 megapixel camera and Carl Zeiss Lens!
    1
    I surely hope Nokia would go on WP7. But I have my doubts... Most of in a Finnish forum is criticizing the rumor, if Nokia would go on WP7. They say, it would be the biggest mistake (I think they have not even try WP7). What I think, it would be the greatest for Nokia for a long time, I mean a loooong time.
    I just bought an Omnia 7. I think it's awesome. My first Windows phone and it's awesome. Okey the old WM was terrible. I have never, ever even thinking about to try that, it looked so ugly and clumsy OS in a phone. But WP7 is so 100% made for a phone OS. And it's beautiful. With Nokia co-operation I think the WP7 could be also coming more popular in Scandinavian, which of course it is not now, because of the lack of localisation.
    1
    Drop Symbian for this BS? It would possibly be the dumbest move of the year.

    You are so Anti-WP7, Pro-Android why do you even bother posting in here?