Where's the high current POGO charger?

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Valynor

Valynor

Senior Member
Nov 22, 2008
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dalingrin said:
There are many indicators throughout the kernel but for brevity I'll post what I think is the most concise.
https://github.com/CyanogenMod/andr...ng/arch/arm/mach-exynos/board-manta-battery.c

Line 773-776

Sets the current to 500ma if USB is detected on the pogo or 2A if AC is detected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

OK, that sucks. :(
I was expecting at least 5V/4A/20W from the Pogo charger. :-/

Really makes no sense either .. a huge battery like its used in the N10 (9Ah) could easily be charged with "0,5C" i.e. 4,5A without even getting exceedingly warm.
 
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W

wptski

Senior Member
Dec 8, 2011
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Warren, MI
D

dalingrin

Inactive Recognized Developer
Nov 6, 2007
1,433
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wptski said:
AC? There is no AC input just DC. How is it stated? It must mean, lack of a true USB port it goes to 2A.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

AC, as in the AC adapter/power supply. All the current going to the charger is DC.

AC is the nomenclature used in the kernel.
 
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J

joe1l

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2009
54
8
Google Pixel 7 Pro
im not sure if it matters but the input current rating on the Tf700 power supply is rated for 100-240v~ .5amp,
the ipad power supply is 100-240v ~.45amp, N10 power supply100-240v ~.35amp, and the N7 100-240v ~.30amp.
 
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Olaeli

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2010
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Helsingborg
Valynor said:
OK, that sucks. :(
I was expecting at least 5V/4A/20W from the Pogo charger. :-/

Really makes no sense either .. a huge battery like its used in the N10 (9Ah) could easily be charged with "0,5C" i.e. 4,5A without even getting exceedingly warm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Compared to the iPad 4 the Nexus 10 battery is only half the size, 22Wh compared to 42Wh.
They also suffer from long charging times.
To get around this problem I think you would need a dedicated charging port - like on a laptop. A USB 3.0 port would probably suffice.


joe1l said:
im not sure if it matters but the input current rating on the Tf700 power supply is rated for 100-240v~ .5amp,
the ipad power supply is 100-240v ~.45amp, N10 power supply100-240v ~.35amp, and the N7 100-240v ~.30amp.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I've 240 V AC in my country.
240*0.35A equals to 84W, that has to be downgraded to 10W DC.
So the input current is more than enough.

But if you only have 110 V AC you would get as little as 38,5W.
Perhaps this difference is enough?
Still, nearly 40 W is almost four times more than needed, but it depends on how good the power unit is at transforming the electricity.
But it must have more than 25% efficiency.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using xda app-developers app
 
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demusss

Senior Member
Mar 2, 2008
68
9
Valynor said:
OK, that sucks. :(
I was expecting at least 5V/4A/20W from the Pogo charger. :-/

Really makes no sense either .. a huge battery like its used in the N10 (9Ah) could easily be charged with "0,5C" i.e. 4,5A without even getting exceedingly warm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

The nexus 10 is only rated at 5V 2A. Just rip off the back cover thing and you'll see what's written.


Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 2
 
R

rashid11

Senior Member
Mar 4, 2010
144
11
A few things:

- when charging from a USB port on one's computer (desktop, laptop etc), USB is derated to something like .5A - so that you don't end up burning the host's USB port, motherboard , power supply or all of the above

- when charging via USB connector on a wall brick, it maxes out @ 2A - the puny little contacts inside of microUSB connector are not deemed to be capable of more than that

In both cases the charging voltage is 5V. If, in fact, N10 can only take 5V/2A charge, then we're kind of screwed and there's nothing we could , N10 would take the 7hrs to fully charge. And it wont be able to be take charge while one is doing anything intensive on the tablet - as 5V/2A is barely sufficient to provide enough juice to keep the table doing what it is doing.

What ASUS did with Transformer - as early as TF101, is allow charging via a proprietary connector @ 12V+. 12V/2A = 24W vs 5vx2A = 10W, almost 2X of the charging juice !

My TF101 charge in no time flat, even while I use them. Of course ASUS had quirks of their own (like having to freeze the original bricks to revive them when overload protection trips), but those are very easily rectified with a $5 12-15V DC power brick + USB female adapter - at your RatShack.

Lets hope that some of the dock pins on the side of N10 are for rapid charging .
 
O

Olaeli

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2010
77
7
36
Helsingborg
8008Hacker said:
That only works for resistive loads. When the current is out of phase or isn't sinusoidal you need to know the PF (power factor).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Well, it's not really a unknown problem, I figured that the manufacturers would compensate for that with a condensator.
In EU, all sold computers are required to compensate for 'bad' sinus-waves that echoes back.
This is also a huge problem for the industries.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using xda app-developers app
 
NLPUNITED

NLPUNITED

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2012
210
9
Montreal
Yup so has an occasional insomniac, the fact that it discharges when used and plugged in is kinda anoying

Sent from my Nexus 10 using xda app-developers app
 
J

joe1l

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2009
54
8
Google Pixel 7 Pro
i know from experience that my n7 power supply rated at the same 5v 2amp spec would charge my tf700 slower than the stock tf700 charger. it would easily take a 1/3 more time to charge with N7 charger. i had always assumed that the n7 pack provided just slightly less current... maybe 200mh difference.
 
8

8008Hacker

Member
Dec 1, 2012
33
14
Sunny San Diego
Olaeli said:
Well, it's not really a unknown problem, I figured that the manufacturers would compensate for that with a condensator.
In EU, all sold computers are required to compensate for 'bad' sinus-waves that echoes back.
This is also a huge problem for the industries.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I usually ignore these kind of posts, but "'bad' sinus-waves" demands a response. :)

First, I'm sure you meant to say sine waves. Second, the issue is reactive current flow in the distribution system, not waves that echo back to the power utility. (PF is not related to wave propagation.). Third, I'm not certain about this, but I didn't think that the EU regs require PFC for devices less than 75 watts. Finally, PF issues for industry are mostly due to ac motors. Motors are totally different from charger circuits and OT to this thread.

Why don't we just agree that calculating P=I*E using nameplate ratings cannot predict the charging current seen by the battery?
 
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e.mote

e.mote

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2011
2,160
887
@dalingrin

>My Nexus 10 charger supplies ~1600ma to the battery.

. Does the kernel supply info on system's overall power consumption? That is, can we ascertain N10 power consumption > supply for certain uses, and by how much?

. Assuming above is true, per empirical reports, is an "over-charge" modded kernel a feasible solution? If 2A-specified nets 1.6A (80% efficiency), then would 2.5A-specified be doable?
 
M

MG386

Senior Member
Jun 14, 2011
142
39
Gilbert
e.mote said:
@dalingrin

>My Nexus 10 charger supplies ~1600ma to the battery.

. Does the kernel supply info on system's overall power consumption? That is, can we ascertain N10 power consumption > supply for certain uses, and by how much?

. Assuming above is true, per empirical reports, is an "over-charge" modded kernel a feasible solution? If 2A-specified nets 1.6A (80% efficiency), then would 2.5A-specified be doable?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I used a modified "fast charge kernel" in my thunderbolt that raised max charge rate from around 800mAh to about 1200mAh. With a quality power supply and a short/thick USB cable. The quality of the cable had more effect than trying different 2A supplies.

With this being a nexus, I hope developers can do the same here.
 
D

dalingrin

Inactive Recognized Developer
Nov 6, 2007
1,433
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e.mote said:
@dalingrin

>My Nexus 10 charger supplies ~1600ma to the battery.

. Does the kernel supply info on system's overall power consumption? That is, can we ascertain N10 power consumption > supply for certain uses, and by how much?

. Assuming above is true, per empirical reports, is an "over-charge" modded kernel a feasible solution? If 2A-specified nets 1.6A (80% efficiency), then would 2.5A-specified be doable?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I arrived at ~1600ma by checking the total power consumption at the battery before and after plugging it in.

It might be possible to allow 2.5A because I remember seeing a few instances where that was the max current for the charger. I don't have a 2.5A charger to test though.


For shiggles, I checked a 5.3v 2A charger I have and the measured current at the battery was the same as the Samsung charger.
 
W

wptski

Senior Member
Dec 8, 2011
1,371
157
Warren, MI
dalingrin said:
I arrived at ~1600ma by checking the total power consumption at the battery before and after plugging it in.

It might be possible to allow 2.5A because I remember seeing a few instances where that was the max current for the charger. I don't have a 2.5A charger to test though.


For shiggles, I checked a 5.3v 2A charger I have and the measured current at the battery was the same as the Samsung charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How did you measure "at the battery"?
 
S

sardox25

Member
Oct 28, 2009
6
0
hm... looks great
 

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tpayne1

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2007
99
7
Cowards

I'm trying to figure out why so many people are terrified of popping open the N10 to figure this out. We already know that pins 1 and 6 are ground (measuring left to right) and pin 2 is a status pin. That leaves 3 pins...2 are likely audio, and one is power. If it's not audio, it's USB data. We know, based on the android central picture of the device, that the pogo charger puts out 5v @ 2a...

We have 3 pins to figure out. How is this so difficult?

I just wish I had mine. I guarantee I will have this figured out within 72 hours of having my device. Put a variable resistor on the status and one of the grounds. Go through the resistances we know have an effect on the Gnex and the N7. You can't possibly damage the device this way. Record this. When you figure out the one that signals a dock mode, play some audio and try to get something out of the other pins. If you get nothing, connect data to some pins. Once you figure out which ones push data/audio, you have your power pin. Apply 5v 2a. Success.
 
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demusss

Senior Member
Mar 2, 2008
68
9
Even if someone does figure out the different pins, how do we make up a pogo plug that fits?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 2
 
T

tpayne1

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2007
99
7
Pogo pins are cheap... So are epoxy and tools to measure with. There's a crowd sourced n7 dock... We could do that with the n10 easily.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
 
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    D
    dalingrin
    Valynor said:
    Please show some proof/references for this statement.
    Click to expand...
    Click to collapse

    There are many indicators throughout the kernel but for brevity I'll post what I think is the most concise.
    https://github.com/CyanogenMod/andr...ng/arch/arm/mach-exynos/board-manta-battery.c

    Line 773-776

    Sets the current to 500ma if USB is detected on the pogo or 2A if AC is detected.
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    jstevenkim
    POGO Cable

    A9_wl6eCAAE4Nbo.jpg:large


    I know there is an issue with charging a nexus 10 by a micro-usb cable since a battery is drained out faster than charging. Thus it has a pogo charging connect and supposed to be charged by a magnetic pogo cable. However, unfortunately the cable didn't come with Nexus 10 for some reason, and there have been no place to purchase it separately though. Here it is!!! it makes nexus 10 charged 40% faster than a usb cable. It will be available for sale on Amazon and ebay soon! I will provide you a link to buy it later.

    ---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------
    jtown said:
    For cryin' out loud, I'm tired of watching my battery drain while plugged into the supplied USB charger. It's ridiculous. I've never owned a portable device that discharged under normal use when plugged into its supplied AC adapter. If I want to spend 15 hours a day playing Angry Birds, it should be possible when I have a power source which is virtually unlimited. Twice, I've started the day with a full battery, had the device plugged in to the supplied 2 amp charger all day, and had <10% left on the battery when I went to bed. (No, I don't actually play Angry Birds for more than a few minutes at a time but I do use the device a lot.)
    Click to expand...
    Click to collapse

    A9_wl6eCAAE4Nbo.jpg:large


    This is an original pogo charging cable and will be available in a week on Amazon or ebay! we are the original supplier to S, and it has been delayed for sale for some reason. Anyway, it will be for sale soon. I will post a link to buy soon.
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    D
    dalingrin
    I am currently out of town so keep in mind I didn't have a chance to dig too deep but I've given the kernel a quick look through.

    There is no such thing as the "high current pogo charger." The pogo pins accept 2A max and appears to be ~5V. The USB connector has the same limits.

    I also took a look at the current at the battery to make sure the charger was being detected correctly. My 1A Samsung non-Nexus 10 charger seems to supply ~900ma to the battery which is as much as you should expect out of a 1A charger. My Nexus 10 charger supplies ~1600ma to the battery. This number seems slightly low but at least indicates the charger is detected correctly.

    *If* the pogo charger does indeed charge faster, it will likely be because the pogo charger is able to supply some current that is asymptotically closer to 2A. In other words, it will not charger much faster than the USB charger.

    On the other hand, the pogo charger will still be nice to have as it will allow simultaneous usage of USB OTG and charging.

    Like I said before, I was unable to dig very deep because I'm out of town and browsing sysfs and kernel source on a tablet isn't the best experience. So, the info I found might not be 100% correct.
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    1
    O
    Olaeli
    jtown said:
    Please do not speculate about how much current can go through the pogo connection. Speculation is worthless and helps nobody. The fact that the included charger only puts out 2 amps probably has to do with limitations of the USB connection. But I'm speculating. See how pointless that is? The fact that one connection is limited to 2 amps doesn't mean all power connections are limited to 2 amps.

    And where did I say anything about increasing the voltage? I'm not an idiot and didn't suggest such a stupid thing.

    As for temperature, that can easily be monitored during charging and the current can be reduced if it gets too high. You are aware that there is a temperature sensor for the battery, right?

    None of which has a darn thing to do with my opinion that it's unacceptable to produce a device that uses more power than it can get from its AC adapter. If there really is no way to run the Nexus 10 at full tilt without supplementing the AC adapter with battery power, Samsung should have addressed that problem before going into production with this unit. This isn't a $150 entry level device. It's the Android flagship.
    Click to expand...
    Click to collapse

    Please, you started speculating about a high-current POGO-charger that doesn't exist.
    Sure, you didn't mention the voltage, but I ve seen comments about it before, so I just wanted to make it clear.

    And I didn't say the temperature was a problem either, just that it lowers the efficiency of the charger and the device.
    Samsung maybe didn't know there was a charging problem.
    We've seen examples before that manufacturers don't test their products enough.
    (ASUS Transformer with encased aluminum body, anyone?)

    And I know, this is supposed to be a flagship, but what everyone forgets is that it's much cheaper than other brands.
    I was looking forward to buy a ASUS TF700 with keyboard at almost twice the price as the Nexus 10 before I read about the Nexus.
    Even if it doesn't justify the charging problem, you could try to adapt to the circumstances until there's a solution.

    When I'm low on battery, I let the device charge and do something else for a change.

    Sent from my Nexus 10 using xda app-developers app

    Edit: If you look at the pictures of the POGO-charger that's across the internet, the charger is still only 5V, 2A.
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    8008Hacker
    hughlle said:
    $20

    A joke for a little cable. You don't even get a power adaptor with it, it is nothing more than a little cable for $20. Personally i will wait to hear something from samsung etc, as in to learn that this guys company is an official supplier, and not someone simply jumping in before everyone else and as such having the ability to set whatever price they want. Failing that i'll just wait for some asian companies to start produing them at reasonable prices.
    Click to expand...
    Click to collapse

    There are two ways to look at this. One way is to make an estimate of the production cost and decide if the price is too high, as you have done. I think your cost estimate may be low. It's a cable with very non-standard connector that contains magnets, pogo pins, and a circuit breaker and is built to OEM standards. What's your estimate for that?

    The other way is to decide if the value of getting a magnetic cable that provides faster charging and lets you use usb is worth $20. For me, it's worth it. Obtw, in the Apple world, most iPad cables go for $39.95. Most of the cheap knockoff cables simply don't work.

    I read some of the other threads about this cable after I posted last night. I guess we have to see if this thing is real and what the total price is with shipping will be.
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