The REAL truth about N1 touch screen

dnts · Feb 6, 2010

Well - hate to break it to ya all... the touch sensor is not true multi-touch. It's not iPhone-like full matrix capacitive touch screen. Yes- it can pinch to zoom and might do some limited rotate (very limited) but it's based on the same technology of common touch pads - it can do only single finger tracking. The pinch gesture can be recognized but if you are thinking you can have apps like the iPhone piano or guitar - or for that matter - a multi touch keyboard - well - it will not happen with the N1 touch screen.
Not to say that it is a problem - multi touch is over hyped as-is. The pinch-to is just good enough and the zoom bar on previous HTC phones was just as useful.
But don't expect the N1 to detect the position of more than one finger.
Given that - I wish they stayed with resistive touch screen where you could use a stylus to type - 15 days with the N1 and still I find it harder to type with my finger that using a stylus with my now sold HTC HD.

But there is no comparing old WinMo with Android. N1 is a keeper.

513 · Feb 6, 2010

Hum, so how come you can find a multi-touch keyboard in the market ?

http://www.androlib.com/android.application.net-cdeguet-smartkeyboardpro-wnzt.aspx

And, not that I don't believe you, but do you have any real proof of what you are saying ?

dnts · Feb 6, 2010

I've downloaded that app. Couldn't see any multi-touch - it would just press the key I put my last finger on.. just like it should if it was what we call a 2-way touchpad.
I work in developing touch solutions so I know a little bit about them.. The N1 screen, to the best of my experience is not true multi-touch.

SBS_ · Feb 6, 2010

dnts:

You could download "MultiTouch Visualizer" and see how N1 handles multitouch, it should be in the market.

If that app is correct, the N1 can distuingish between 2 points at a time which as far as I know is exactly the same as on iphone.

edit:
Just a comment about pinch to zoom, wouldn't this be impossible without multi-touch? The center point between your fingers do not change and as such it has to be multi-touch to allow this gesture. Correct me if I'm wrong.

pjcforpres · Feb 6, 2010

dnts said:
I've downloaded that app. Couldn't see any multi-touch - it would just press the key I put my last finger on.. just like it should if it was what we call a 2-way touchpad.
I work in developing touch solutions so I know a little bit about them.. The N1 screen, to the best of my experience is not true multi-touch.

In your OP you say the screen is a specific type that doesn't support it... general user experience of an app in BETA stage isn't a good way to determine that...

Do you have any other reason to claim the hardware of the N1 does not support multi-touch?

xManMythLegend · Feb 6, 2010

OP has zero clue what hes talking about.
He contradicts himself several times.

Theres MT visualizer as mentioned and theres numerous fingerpaint drawing apps that let you do 2 fingers at the same time.

Why not start a post with N1 doesnt have a true trackball.

grainysand · Feb 6, 2010

xManMythLegend said:
Why not start a post with N1 doesnt have a true trackball.

The trackball is a lie!

Uejji · Feb 6, 2010

There could be some merit to this statement. The form of multitouch the touchscreen on the G1 and Magic (perhaps more, but I'm not sure) used was capable of "2x1d" positioning. That is, if you touched the screen in two places, it knew the two x coordinates being touched and the two y coordinates being touched, but had to way of correlating which x was paired to which y... this was handled in software.

This was fine for pinch gestures, but recall in Luke Hutchison's videos where he showed that the software could become confused and pair the x and y incorrectly, which would lead to the system registering the opposite corners of the touch "box" between your fingers.

You can still see the effect today on some multitouch applications in the Market on the Nexus One. Like multitouch pong or the multitouch plugin for ethereal dialpad. In each case, the software can directly determine the initial touch points usually, but when points cross in the x or y axis they will "snap" together in that axis, and when moving from that position may become confused. This makes games like Multitouch Pong unusable on the Nexus One because it is just not reliable. However I have no way of knowing if this is a hardware limitation or a limitation in the touch software, and nobody has really talked about it.

This is contrasted to the iphone, whose touch screen allows it to keep track of touch points as two (x,y) coordinates without any sort of axis snapping.

pjcforpres · Feb 6, 2010

Uejji said:
There could be some merit to this statement. The form of multitouch the touchscreen on the G1 and Magic (perhaps more, but I'm not sure) used was capable of "2x1d" positioning. That is, if you touched the screen in two places, it knew the two x coordinates being touched and the two y coordinates being touched, but had to way of correlating which x was paired to which y... this was handled in software.

This was fine for pinch gestures, but recall in Luke Hutchison's videos where he showed that the software could become confused and pair the x and y incorrectly, which would lead to the system registering the opposite corners of the touch "box" between your fingers.

You can still see the effect today on some multitouch applications in the Market on the Nexus One. Like multitouch pong or the multitouch plugin for ethereal dialpad. In each case, the software can directly determine the initial touch points usually, but when points cross in the x or y axis they will "snap" together in that axis, and when moving from that position may become confused. This makes games like Multitouch Pong unusable on the Nexus One because it is just not reliable. However I have no way of knowing if this is a hardware limitation or a limitation in the touch software, and nobody has really talked about it.

This is contrasted to the iphone, whose touch screen allows it to keep track of touch points as two (x,y) coordinates without any sort of axis snapping.

It is software... even the iPhone has issues with tracking the X,Y pairs when they run into one another, but they have 3 generations of of software developement to help sort it all out. Even with that, you can still confuse the iPhone's multi-touch... make an "X" shape on the scren by running your fingers togther than apart in two "V" shapes, and 99% of the the time it will register it is two seperate lines crossing, and not two actual V's... as well, if you try to cross your fingers it can get even crazier!

The N1 does have a ways to go in terms of multi-touch software and app support to catch up to the iPhone, but I don't see anywhere that supports the claim it is a hardware limitation.

hypersonicx · Feb 6, 2010

Stylus...

Im sorry but resistant touch screens are the worse screen to be on. Typing on a resistance touch screen is the worst experience ever. Go try a Samsung Omnia I or HTC Touch Diamond.

If your on a all screen device with no keyboard, capacitive is the way to go. Its obvious that the OP doesnt know what he is talking about or doesnt have past experience with resistant touch screens.

If your fingers too big and you need a stylus thats your problem, not a problem of the device.

balabok · Feb 6, 2010

The Nexus One uses a Synaptics ClearPad 2000 touch screen.

ClearPad 2000 Series benefits

ClearPad 2000 is the original ClearPad solution, offering DualTouch capabilities and easy gesture integration in firmware. In addition to the core ClearPad benefits, ClearPad 2000 Series offers:

* Proven Success—Since its introduction in 2007, ClearPad continues to set the standard for touchscreen performance.
* Exceptional User Experience—Two-finger interaction and gestures (i.e., Pinch, Pivot Rotate) provide an intuitive user experience.
* Best-in-Class Performance and Accuracy—Synaptics’ track record in design and testing ensures successful products that integrate ClearPad 2000 touchscreens.

ClearPad benefits

All ClearPad solutions bring you the wide-ranging benefits that come from choosing an industry-leading solution:

* Solution Stack—Synaptics’ comprehensive solution offering covers all critical capabilities, from design to testing to supply/support.
* Seamless Integration—Mount ClearPad touch panels beneath a product’s casing for a sleek, smooth appearance.
* Superior Optics—ClearPad touch panels minimize internal reflections.
* Accuracy—ClearPad delivers best-in-class accuracy, including resolutions of 500+ dpi, without requiring calibration.
* Durability—ClearPad touch sensors, mounted beneath a device’s top plastic, can be designed with a glass or PET substrate.
* Lower Consumption—Doze, sleep, and deep sleep modes maximize battery life and use less energy.

supergodie · Feb 6, 2010

So, the nexus one is only dualtouch and the iphone is multitouch

dnts · Feb 6, 2010

Thank you guys for flaming me... but that will not change the fact the our N1s have a simple surface capacitance touch screen that has the ability to distinguish up to 2 fingers provided that they don't cross axis with each other (i.e. each finger stays in it's perimeter so either X or Y axis don't align).
I've designed several touch pads and other touch solutions in the past few years and have pending patents on that technology. You can say what you'd like about my lack of experience - ha - it will not change anything and I couldn't care less.
You can check out this patent application (soon to be granted, I hope):
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2009/0046827.html

So believe me guys and gals - it ain't no multi-touch and don't expect to have multi tocuh capabilities. Pinch to zoom.. maybe rotate... or some 2-finger flicking... that's all. No good and working multi touch keyboard.. no piano or guitar app... simply cannot be done with this hardware...

That said, this hardware provides better accuracy, lower power consumption and is free of patent issues (Apple's multi touch is heavily patent protected).

htcmagic · Feb 6, 2010

dnts said:
Thank you guys for flaming me... but that will not change the fact the our N1s have a simple surface capacitance touch screen that has the ability to distinguish up to 2 fingers provided that they don't cross axis with each other (i.e. each finger stays in it's perimeter so either X or Y axis don't align).
I've designed several touch pads and other touch solutions in the past few years and have pending patents on that technology. You can say what you'd like about my lack of experience - ha - it will not change anything and I couldn't care less.
You can check out this patent application (soon to be granted, I hope):
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2009/0046827.html

So believe me guys and gals - it ain't no multi-touch and don't expect to have multi tocuh capabilities. Pinch to zoom.. maybe rotate... or some 2-finger flicking... that's all. No good and working multi touch keyboard.. no piano or guitar app... simply cannot be done with this hardware...

That said, this hardware provides better accuracy, lower power consumption and is free of patent issues (Apple's multi touch is heavily patent protected).

it is multitouch for me, and you can say what you want. Maybe you should write an article in iphone fanboy sites like engadget and gizmodo, because they would love to hear your scientific findings.
Maybe you could sell your technology to apple or microsoft.

Everyday, since the launch of Nexus, and especially after the OTA there is a scientist picking up no Nexus, because people cannot comprehend that it is better than their iphone. They got stack with steve jobs talking crap about icrap technologies and now cannot bear the shock.

Keep walking, Johnnie Walker.

balabok · Feb 6, 2010

supergodie said:
So, the nexus one is only dualtouch and the iphone is multitouch

Dual touch (two finger) IS multitouch. The common definition of mutitouch is more that one finger. The Iphone is rumored to use the same screen. Apple doesn't reveal it's suppliers.

* ClearPad 3000 Series—Our premium ClearPad solution provides the ultimate in touchscreen innovation and excitement with MultiTouch capabilities (up to 10 fingers simultaneously). A powerful new chip delivers 48 sensing channels and excellent power management for a differentiated user experience. Click here to see the 3000 Series demo demo with gestures like Crumple and Scratch.

* ClearPad 2000 Series—ClearPad 2000 Series—the original ClearPad solution—brings exceptional DualTouch (2-finger) touch capabilities to a wide range of handheld devices. High performance and accuracy combined with seamless gesture integration make ClearPad 2000 Series the proven touchscreen leader seen in the market.

* ClearPad 1000 Series—ClearPad 1000 makes touch capabilities available to mass-market handheld devices. This SingleTouch solution provides exceptional gesture integration and a flexible zero-border sensor design. For cost-effective touchscreen capabilities, ClearPad 1000 is the right choice.

supergodie · Feb 6, 2010

Guys I was looking the synaptic webpage and I found this :

ww.synaptics.com/about/press/press-releases/synaptics-clearpad-on-nexus-one-smartphone

Nexus one has a CLEARpad 2000 capacitive touch screen sensor, so it's dual touch , the clearpad 3000 it has support for multitouch

.
So the nexus one doesn't have multitouch only has dual touch

...

I was testing the piano application from Iphone and It's recognize a lot of points on the screen , anybody know which hardware display have the iphone? .

PD: I sold my iphone 3GS and now I have a nexus one .

Sorry, my english is bad

.

dnts · Feb 6, 2010

htcmagic said:
it is multitouch for me, and you can say what you want. Maybe you should write an article in iphone fanboy sites like engadget and gizmodo, because they would love to hear your scientific findings.
Maybe you could sell your technology to apple or microsoft.

Everyday, since the launch of Nexus, and especially after the OTA there is a scientist picking up no Nexus, because people cannot comprehend that it is better than their iphone. They got stack with steve jobs talking crap about icrap technologies and now cannot bear the shock.

Keep walking, Johnnie Walker.

Well.. you obviosly don't want to understand what I am saying and if you are a happy camper with your N1 - so be it.. I will not ruin the fun for you...
But the Clearpad 2000 technology is lacking. We all know the palm wrapping problem offsetting our finger touch if we don't hold the device careful enough... root cause of this is HW and software may ease things up slightly but cannot rid of that problem (which is #1 problem with N1 screen for me).
I never owned an iPhone. I don't like anything Apple.. don't like being a fanboy either. Not for WinMo and not for Android.

I like my N1. A leap from the HD. A keeper for me. But that doesn't stop me from pointing out stuff when I see it.

All the best...

Eclair~ · Feb 6, 2010

dnts said:
Well.. you obviosly don't want to understand what I am saying and if you are a happy camper with your N1 - so be it.. I will not ruin the fun for you...
But the Clearpad 2000 technology is lacking. We all know the palm wrapping problem offsetting our finger touch if we don't hold the device careful enough... root cause of this is HW and software may ease things up slightly but cannot rid of that problem (which is #1 problem with N1 screen for me).
I never owned an iPhone. I don't like anything Apple.. don't like being a fanboy either. Not for WinMo and not for Android.

I like my N1. A leap from the HD. A keeper for me. But that doesn't stop me from pointing out stuff when I see it.

All the best...

I

I for one, find this all very interesting, and from the sounds of it, this guy knows his stuff and it seems pretty factual.

People, its not exactly a bad thing the N1 doesn't have true-multitouch, it is not as if the average consumer will realize this. They will look at whatever involves two fingers as exactly what the iPhone has.

Exactly why though would we need multiple fingers on the screen, other than two? I guess for things such as piano and guitar, but I do not believe this would contribute to many other things..

w00yee · Feb 6, 2010

balabok said:
Dual touch (two finger) IS multitouch. The common definition of mutitouch is more that one finger. The Iphone is rumored to use the same screen. Apple doesn't reveal it's suppliers.

" today announced that the Nexus One™ phone uses its ClearPad™ 2000 capacitive touchscreen sensor."

So sad to see that ... I would rather pay an extra 50 bucks for a ClearPad 3000 if 50 is enough, though so far 2 fingers response is enough for me

Hope the 2000 is not the source of the touch screen problem.
Looking forward to see info about the chip that N1 uses: "T1007A, 2 0927, AMP08P"

Glithramir · Feb 6, 2010

Oh no! Can I only use two fingers with my Nexus One?
Now I must sell it and buy something better... I must use at least three fingers when using the facebook app! An playing the piano on my phone is something i wish to do every day.

Seriously guys... Even if the Nexus has single touch it beats every phone out there today imho. Stop whining what it could have been and just be happy and have some fun with it... =)

The REAL truth about N1 touch screen

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