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mrjs84day

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2011
177
28
40
I'm sorry you guys are having to go through this, I appreciate what you guys have brought to our very challenging device. I'm not a dev and I'm new to the Android world but I know that the things you guys are going through seem a bit harsh. Without the few ppl like you this section and phone would have died. Just my opinion.

Seems, means exactly that it seems harsh the truth behind it, of course I don't know but I wanted to show positive our encouraging support...its not like I matter but hey you never know.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
 
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digitalhigh

Inactive Recognized Developer
Dec 28, 2010
3,626
11,934
Milwaukee, WI
www.facebook.com
Don't worry about it.

I wouldn't say I'm worried about it. I'd say I'm just slightly irritated by it, and I took one opportunity to let whomever's responsible know that I think it's ridiculous. If someone's got a problem with me or something I've said or done, then the grown-up way of dealing with it would be to address me directly...not file some bogus complaint in a half-assed attempt to get me in trouble.

Either way, I've spoken my piece, the git is publicly linked, and outside of my temper, there isn't one other thing anybody's got against me. I'm over it. I apologize for the outburst.
 
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pstevep

Retired Senior Mod / Inactive Recognized Themer
Aug 31, 2010
6,085
8,076
A place just beyond throwing distance
I wouldn't say I'm worried about it. I'd say I'm just slightly irritated by it, and I took one opportunity to let whomever's responsible know that I think it's ridiculous. If someone's got a problem with me or something I've said or done, then the grown-up way of dealing with it would be to address me directly...not file some bogus complaint in a half-assed attempt to get me in trouble.

Either way, I've spoken my piece, the git is publicly linked, and outside of my temper, there isn't one other thing anybody's got against me. I'm over it. I apologize for the outburst.

I understand. Completely. And sorry for hijacking the thread, just wanted you to know you weren't the only one.
 
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Datguy_n_Disguy

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2012
630
211
Ocoee, FL
I wouldn't say I'm worried about it. I'd say I'm just slightly irritated by it, and I took one opportunity to let whomever's responsible know that I think it's ridiculous. If someone's got a problem with me or something I've said or done, then the grown-up way of dealing with it would be to address me directly...not file some bogus complaint in a half-assed attempt to get me in trouble.

Either way, I've spoken my piece, the git is publicly linked, and outside of my temper, there isn't one other thing anybody's got against me. I'm over it. I apologize for the outburst.

Don't let it get to your head. When people do this, they just want the reaction. If you react (like you, and many other devs are), then they got what they wanted. If you don't react and just ignore it, then they'll be bumming.

Sent from my Super-Stock EVO 3D.
 

MistakenUtopia

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2010
453
194
San Jo
I've been playing around with this rom. Shiet, it's the best one of those roms so far. I think I'm gonna stick with this rom for a while. What's the best kernel for this rom?

Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
 

agrabren

Inactive Recognized Developer
Mar 28, 2011
1,451
9,516
Weld County, CO
It's a backlash because Chad got booted for repeat GPL violations. He's been busy spinning stories on his personal forums trying to make himself out to be the victim, when he had repeatedly refused outright to comply with the law. So his devout fans are trying to punish the forums for his lies. (Example: his claim a lawyer said his NDA agreement gave him legal right to distribute the kernel binary without source, no contract lawyer will say an NDA can offer protection from copyright violation unless offered by the exclusive copyright holder) While it's a minor inconvenience, it's not a personal attack, it's more immature response from people who are mad.

Sent from my HTC EVO 3D running CM9!
 

mrjs84day

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2011
177
28
40
Can someone tell me which one of dh's builds doesn't have battery drain or maybe a fix for his current build. I'm not using any custom kernel besides what comes with it and I restored my apps from play store and not tb. I posted a few pages back exactly what I was getting as far as drainage, according to a few apps and scripts.

Sent from my PG86100 using XDA
 

Holyrolla

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2010
295
27
Lexington
Whats happening in the thread ? No new updates from MIUI ??? or from digitalhigh or Joelz ???? What happened ?

Everyone is patiently waiting on the v4 version of MIUI.

/rant mode

And to add my two cents to this whole thing, XDA won't go downhill because of rules being followed, it'll go downhill because of childish responses, whether is a GPL violation or a report of a GPL violation. It must feel like a slap, but at the end of the day, if one is compliant, then there really was never anything to get upset over, my two cents.

If I'm accused of something, or if I'm doing the accusing, I have to have my case ready.

DH, it was a simple fix to the OP and now all is good. I understand your initial frustration, but at the end of the day, you're still here to do good work, so don't let that one report ruin this or any other day. If nothing else, people can see that the mods are trying to investigate all reports equally, and no one gets singled out.

/end rant

I'm out.
 

MorePAIN

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2010
459
134
This should only make you want to release this next version quicker....right?
Revenge is a dish best served cold?
Lol

Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
 

digitalhigh

Inactive Recognized Developer
Dec 28, 2010
3,626
11,934
Milwaukee, WI
www.facebook.com
Can someone tell me which one of dh's builds doesn't have battery drain or maybe a fix for his current build. I'm not using any custom kernel besides what comes with it and I restored my apps from play store and not tb. I posted a few pages back exactly what I was getting as far as drainage, according to a few apps and scripts.

Sent from my PG86100 using XDA

What apps do you have installed? I'd wager it's got to be one of them that's causing the drain. My motto is - if I don't use it at least once a week, I don't really need it. Or, if you have several programs that do the same thing...trash all of them but the one you use the most. Like...I had File Expert and Root Explorer installed for a while. Never used File Expert. Delete it.

Troubleshooting battery issues is a beast.

Basically, I don't have a whole whopping amount of free time @ my disposal right now. I've got 3 different places to be today for Mudder's day, 2 very high-profile hardware installs on Monday, and another on Tuesday. By then, I'll also probably have the parts for the two 8-core rigs I'm building for a client, which means assembling them.

Or, in short...I've got a plateful the next few days. Throw up what apps you're using, PM me a logcat if you want, and I'll try and take a look. But realistically...and I've said this before...I don't see a lot of sense in trying to fix up the GB build anymore if I can put out an ICS one. Doesn't mean I won't...I'd just rather work on ICS.

So no promises, but I'll try to get something up tonight IF all the pieces fall in place and I have a few hours of uninterrupted time. Either a fixed up GB, or *maybe* a very early ICS if I can get one to boot and it has any noteworthy new features. We shall see. Happy mudder's day.
 
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valdesr11

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2010
1,536
480
Miami, Florida
What apps do you have installed? I'd wager it's got to be one of them that's causing the drain. My motto is - if I don't use it at least once a week, I don't really need it. Or, if you have several programs that do the same thing...trash all of them but the one you use the most. Like...I had File Expert and Root Explorer installed for a while. Never used File Expert. Delete it.

Troubleshooting battery issues is a beast.

Basically, I don't have a whole whopping amount of free time @ my disposal right now. I've got 3 different places to be today for Mudder's day, 2 very high-profile hardware installs on Monday, and another on Tuesday. By then, I'll also probably have the parts for the two 8-core rigs I'm building for a client, which means assembling them.

Or, in short...I've got a plateful the next few days. Throw up what apps you're using, PM me a logcat if you want, and I'll try and take a look. But realistically...and I've said this before...I don't see a lot of sense in trying to fix up the GB build anymore if I can put out an ICS one. Doesn't mean I won't...I'd just rather work on ICS.

So no promises, but I'll try to get something up tonight IF all the pieces fall in place and I have a few hours of uninterrupted time. Either a fixed up GB, or *maybe* a very early ICS if I can get one to boot and it has any noteworthy new features. We shall see. Happy mudder's day.

Enjoy the day with your family. People can wait another week for a great release.
 

digitalhigh

Inactive Recognized Developer
Dec 28, 2010
3,626
11,934
Milwaukee, WI
www.facebook.com
Enjoy the day with your family. People can wait another week for a great release.

Oh, I'm not going to skimp on that end. But I also have a 4-year old, which means nap time in the afternoon between Grandma-in-law's and my mom's house. That may be enough time to get something to boot. I've got the components to do it...I just need more than 15 minutes to do it in. ;)

It may not have all the features yet...but I'd be cool with popping out something that has +camera and +bt till we get her to 100%. A pre-alpha, if you will.

We shall see. There's a difference between a temporary offering and a rushed POS. :D
 

Datguy_n_Disguy

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2012
630
211
Ocoee, FL
Oh, I'm not going to skimp on that end. But I also have a 4-year old, which means nap time in the afternoon between Grandma-in-law's and my mom's house. That may be enough time to get something to boot. I've got the components to do it...I just need more than 15 minutes to do it in. ;)

It may not have all the features yet...but I'd be cool with popping out something that has +camera and +bt till we get her to 100%. A pre-alpha, if you will.

We shall see. There's a difference between a temporary offering and a rushed POS. :D

Awesome. Just please don't include a Linux 3.0 kernel.

Sent from my Super-Stock EVO 3D.
 

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  • 112

    Team CrashOverride Is Proud To Present
    MIUI v4 3.2.22 FINAL For HTC 3VO

    MiuiSS.jpg


    This is most likely the final release of this ROM, as MIUI is discontinuing builds for v4/ICS devices. I may release bugfixes or "addon" updates, but unless I can port from JB to ICS, this will be the end of updates from China. Please see my JB version of MIUI for the latest release.

    Downloads
    Download the full ROM
    Modded HTCFMRadio.apk (for theme)
    Modded SystemUI (fixes cutoff close button in notification bar)

    Installation Instructions

    1. Download the ROM.
    2. Open in Recovery.
    3. Select wipe settings (uncheck 'data' for dirty flash).
    4. Select Carrier.
    5. Select installation mode. Minimal installs ROM only. Max installs everything. Custom lets you select options.
    6. Profit.

    Notes:
    This works with all Hboot versions, no need to upgrade/downgrade.

    Features
    Working MMS/VVM for Virgin Mobile Users
    Aroma-based installer with customized theme & Custom Wipe options
    Based on OFFICIAL X515 build - This is not a port
    Working 3D Camera/Gallery/Games
    All working hardware except for 4G
    MAC Sense Kernel 3.5 with Overclock to 1.7ghz, Linaro Optimizations,
    USB Host Mode, Zram Compression, Sweep2Wake, and lots more
    Coolz Cam Mod with super HD Video, HDR, and panoramic mode
    Custom MIUI Control Panel for Center Clock/Custom Banner
    Custom MIUI Keyboard
    MIUI EQualizer
    4-in-1 Reboot Menu
    Custom init.d scripts for performance
    Adreno_Config Mods for video performance
    3G/Data Speed Mods for optimized signal
    GPS/AGPS mods for faster GPS fixing
    Updated HOSTS file for Ad blocking
    FULLY WORKING Google Now/Search
    Integrated Gapps
    HTC Car Dock application
    Goo.IM updater application

    Optional Apps/Features:
    MIUI V5 Iced Theme - Theme made specifically for this ROM, features MIUI v5 resources and look - with an ice blue touch. Features a number of modifications specific for HTC-based MIUI, including camera and FM Radio.
    Ultimate Custom Clock Widget + US MIUI 4x2 Clock Widget Clone Skin
    Playstation Certification
    Flv Player
    Moavi Flv Player
    TrevE Wifi Tether
    Gmail
    Maps
    Chrome Beta
    JB 4.2 Camera/Gallery
    JB 4.2 Emojii Keyboard
    9S Weather
    MIUI Game Center
    MIui Video
    Goo.im ROM updater
    Online Nandroid Backup
    Youtube

    Not Working
    4G

    Changelog

    Code:
    [URL="http://en.miui.com/thread-1960-1-1.html"]CLICK HERE FOR WEEKLY MIUI CHANGELOG (OFFICIAL)[/URL]
    
    2.25.13
    
    Updated to latest MIUI version (3.2.22)
    Updated theme to MIUI v5 Iced.  
    Updated Kernel to MAC 3.7
    Added a host of new tweaks courtesy of JRummy16
    Fixed installer-script causing issues breaking ability to back up data via nandroid
    Custom modification to MIUISystemUI and framework-res for JB styled notification area, as well as mod to FMRadio.apk to match MIUI theme in MIUI v5 Iced
    
    2.11.13
    
    Updated Coolspace Deluxe theme to 2.2, added theme elements for custom apps
    Extra tweaks in build.prop, hope to increase sound quality, image quality, data speeds
    Added option to installer for JB Keyboard and Camera
    Removed function of installer where MIUI Browser is deleted if Chrome is installed
    Updated Kernel Tuner and UCCW to latest versions
    
    2.4.13 (contains changes from 1.29.13):
    
    Added Aroma installer. All "custom" options now install as designed.
    
    Not sure if I mentioned it last week, but I updated the MIUIHome's default layout to take "Talk" out of that stupid "recommended" folder and just put it on the desktop. Also took and put "themes" and "settings" into the "tools" folder on the main page and changed the layout so that they're all in the same row. In the future, I plan on switching the MIUI search widget with the google one...just haven't gotten there yet.
    
    Coolspace Deluxe theme is included by default, but not installed. Updated to 2.1 to fix various issues with missing app themes and framework-res 9pings being screwed. Installer will copy it to /SDCard, where you can then import it from Theme manager.
    
    MIUI 2x4 Widget is included as an .apk...not 100pct if it will show up properly if UCCW has been installed before. Please test and let me know.
    Moved Gmail, Maps, Kernel Tuner, Gamecenter, MiuiVideo, and Goo.im to the "optional" category as well, and set their install location to /data/app instead of /system/app to allow for removal if desired.
    
    Wipe menu - for future use, you can choose to leave data sections untouched and do a dirty flash. 
    
    Added 9S weather, 2 different FLV players, TrevE's wifi tether app, Playstation certification, and Online Nandroid backup app as optional installs (in addition to others mentioned).
    
    Updated to 3.3 MAC kernel. 
    
    Fixed boot animation sometimes causes OOM issues due to size by deleting half the frames used.
    
    Modified goo setting in build.prop to hopefully fix the issue where it always shows an old update in current.
    
    Attempted MMS fix for Virgin users may/may not work - will be fixed "fo sho" next week.
    
    
    1.29.13 (not officially released):
    
    Updated to latest MIUI version.
    Added Aroma installer (Thanks CMB!)
    Created Custom Aroma Installer skin/gfx
    Added aroma feature for Virgin Mobile users.  Please report on effect.
    Updated Coolspace Theme to 2.0.  Fixes framework glitches, updates icons, etc.
    Included MIUI Weather 2x4 widget skin for UCCW.
    Modified MiuiHome.apk to change default layout.  Theme manager and settings are now in the tools folder.
    Added optional online nandroid updater.
    Moved several apk's to data/app instead of system, hope to retain settings between flashes.
    
    
    1.18.13:
    
    Updated to latest MIUI version.
    Updated latest MIUI Control panel version.
    Re-added Coolz camera mod.
    Added download option for dirty flash/update.zip
    Added experimental MMS fix for Virgin Mobile users.
    
    1.11.13:
    
    Updated to 1.11.13
    Missed the rotation addition to MMS this week...will put it back next.
    That's all.  It's nice when you don't have anything to fix.  :D
    
    12.24.12:  
    
    Updated to 2.12.21 from Xiaomi
    Fixed APN in framework-res, should automagically add Sprint APN now.  (Virgin WIP)
    Removed a few extra unneeded files
    Updated Kernel installation method to alleviate possible weirdness with reboots and wifi.  (oooh, pretty lights)
    Fixed MIUI Equalizer (used Awesomebeats libs)
    
    
    2.12.7:
    
    Added MIUI Keyboard.
    Added MIUI Control Panel.
    Added MIUI EQ (Actual EQ Portion causes f/c.  Use for adjusting bass levels.)
    Fixed Bootloop issues.
    Fixed wonky crash in previous upload.
    Added HTC Car Panel.  What the hell, right?  :D
    Camera *should* have Panorama/HDR re-implemented.  
    Reverted Kernel to previous MAC build to fix wifi issues.
    Added AGPS/GPS tweaks again.
    Added data mods in build.prop.
    Adjusted media_profiles.xml to improve recording bitrates.
    Release of [URL="http://goo.im/devs/digitalhigh/Coolspace_Deluxe_1.6.mtz"]Coolspace Deluxe Theme[/URL] with specific 3VO mods for camera and Google Now.
    Added landscape mode to MMS/messaging app.
    
    11.27.12:
    
    Updated to 2.11.23 build.
    Updated kernel to MAC 3.0 Sense
    Updated Kernel Tuner.apk to latest version.
    
    09/21/12:
    
    Switched from DC script to Kernel Tuner - installed latest version
    Fixed MMS issue.  
    Updated to 2.9.21 from MIUI Git.
    
    09/16/12:
    
    Fixed Google Now issue.
    Updated to V7 of MikeyXDA's app, added offline voice searching (explains the increase in filesize)
    Fixed Audio.
    Beats notification wooooorks.
    Added custom translated version of GameCenter.
    Re-added DC Control script (caution, may be dragons).
    Updated DC script to control sweep2wake.
    Added Virtuous OC.
    Added Self-updating HOSTS file - disableable via DC.
    Added notification sounds from CM7.
    Added extra MIUI wallpapers.
    A few extra goodies are there too.  ;)
    
    08/31:
    
    First public release built straight from PatchROM!!!!  Go CMB go!!
    Switched (back) to AwesomeBeats DSP manager.  Thanks to ...Awesome...!
    Included MikeC's new "unnamed" kernel.  Thanks to Mike and team!
    Should see an improvement in signal strength.
    Fixed issues with Permission Manager not working on requests.
    
    08/10:
    
    Fixed MMS.
    Fixed 3d in boot animation.  
    Added Google Now w. voice.
    Fixed "About Phone" menu.
    Fixed Superuser issues, removed supersu.
    Added "improved" Evo 3d Camera (panorama, HDR, improved video quality, etc.).
    Added Bravia Engine & Xloud.  (Thanks Patcha!!)
    Put EXT4 mounting back into boot.img.
    
    08/03:
    
    Using Official GSM port as starting point.
    Merged files from Official OTA ICS from Sprint.
    Included SuperSU as a temp fix for permissions app.
    User Feedback app now sends error reports directly to me.
    Removed shutter sound from camera app.
    Implemented 4g menu - not fully working yet.
    Updated to 2.8.3.
    [url]https://plus.google.com/108531052526575991056/posts/baQviEGpoZm[/url]
    
    07/13:
    Fixed issues from the ill-fated 7/6 build.
    Updated base to Devil Toast 6.1.  Should fix wifi speed issues, hopefully battery drain.
    Updated to 2.7.13 MIUI-side. [url]https://plus.google.com/108531052526575991056/posts/51Z1VkAQqfa[/url]
    Re-added ghost VM fix.
    
    06/29:
    
    Added AwesomeBeats DSP manager app - uses Beats libs from Sense.  Thanks ...Awesome...!
    
    Added SpareParts app from Myn2.34 - Thanks to MikeC84 for the find!
    
    Added modified DroidSansFallback font to include missing emoji.
    
    Integrated phone ghost VM fix into phone.apk.  :D
    
    Updated Gapps - should fix market issues and FFC.
    
    Included Bravia and Xloud engines.
    
    Removed MIUI.us Update.apk due to FC issue.  Goo updater still included.
    
    Switched to 30dhultra tuning script in init.d instead of ViperRom.  
    
    Modified framework-res.apk to use brighter auto-backlight values in bright lighting conditions.  
    
    Updated MIUI-side to 2.7.13 version.  [URL="https://plus.google.com/108531052526575991056/posts/51Z1VkAQqfa"]Full changelog here.[/URL]


    Thanks
    CMBaughman, Agrabren, Team Nega for the aroma-installer I used as a guide, Blind, Scott from MIUI.us, Valdesr11, all of team MIUI.us, MiuiAndroid, MiuiAustralia, Xiaomi, the folks at goo.im and dev-host for providing us a free way to distribute our work, freeza, viperboy, il duce, vanessam, and all the staff at XDA for helping make this such a great community...all the people who's work I've borrowed code, images, or even inspiration from - if credit is omitted, it is not deliberate or intentional. Anybody else I missed. You guys rock.
    36
    How to report a bug the right way

    Allright...

    Been getting a lot of bug reports lately, and the vast majority of them don't have any kind of system information included whatsoever. People just blurt out stuff like "Camera ain't workin'", and expect me to go "Oooooooh. Your camera don't work. Please, allow me to customize you a script to fix it based on that thorough explanation of the issues."

    To be fair, there are some issues that may be simple to replicate and don't require a lot of information to track down. Stuff like "This program is missing" or "the cap button backlights misbehave from time to time".

    For all the other stuff...there is a right way and a wrong way to ask for help.

    The wrong way involves complaining about the issue while providing as little info as possible. Degrading the ROM itself is a nice touch. You know, like "This POS won't boot."

    That, my friends, will get you one reply...which will be me telling you you'd probably be better off using a ROM that doesn't require common sense to run.

    The RIGHT way to ask for help involves the following:

    1. Provide as much information about your system as possible. This includes, but is not limited to, the following pieces of information:

    a. What Hboot version you are using.
    b. Your S-off status.
    c. What recovery you're using.
    d. What firmware you're using.
    e. A detailed description of the issue. When it happens, the frequency, anything that you do that causes it to happen...tell me what I need to do to make it happen on my phone.


    Additionally, for issues related to hardware (camera, data, screen, wifi) - and hell, for any issue, it is more often than not a good idea to include a logcat.

    A logcat is like a system log...it runs as soon as your phone starts up, and it tells me when something goes wrong so I can try to figure out why. A logcat will make the difference between me yelling at you, and me being very grateful for your thoughtful and well-constructed request for assistance.

    Now, for some odd reason, it seems that every time I ask someone for a logcat, they make a face like this at me, :eek:, and then vanish off the face of the planet.

    Contrary to what you may think...bugs bother me. A lot. The majority of nights end with me lying in bed thinking about the first thing I'm going to attempt to fix tomorrow.

    SO, when you post saying something doesn't work, and then I say "get me a logcat, please", and you switch to a Sense ROM and don't look back...it helps nobody.


    With all that said...below is a link to some very simple instructions for how to install Android SDK and do a logcat. It's pretty damned simple. If you can follow instructions for flashing a ROM, then you should be able to do this.

    http://www.shahz.net/android/adb-installation-and-how-to-logcat.html

    If THAT is too daunting for you, then the next step would be to get Alogcat from the market.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.jtb.alogcat&hl=en

    Alogcat is even easier. Something crappy happens...you open alogcat, save the output, and send it to me.

    Can we do that? Please? I'm so tired of asking for a logcat around every turn. Help me help you.
    20
    My 3.0 kernel builds with camera now... Still a few kinks to make it take a picture still, but that's huge progress.
    20
    BAH GAWD!!!

    Shot From My HTC Shooter In The 3rd Dimension Powered By Virgin... FML

    You can say that again!!!!

    So, here's the skinny:

    I can now say, 100%, that we have been able to build a working MIUI port on top of Agrabren's CM9 work.

    I also want to specify, that by "we", I mean CmBaughman. While I've been running around in circles beating my head against the wall, he's been doing smali magic and all kinds of joy to get this thing going...and succeeded.

    So first and foremost, everybody should give him a big thank you. All I did was explained a few things I'd been trying, and he ran with it.

    Now, obviously, Agrabren's side of things isn't quite ready yet. BUT, the fact that I am currently running a port of MIUI that has working camera, wifi, data, phone, bluetooth, and rear camera...well...it assures me that when Agrabren's got his stuff where he wants it, we will have no problem building on it in the future.

    Again...working rear camera and bluetooth. Hell, I'll post a screenshot here just as soon as I'm done restoring my data. ;)

    So, I'll be talking with Cmbaughman & Agrabren tonight to make sure everybody is fine with it...but I anticipate having a 2.6.1 release for you guys tomorrow.

    And again...maaaaaad thanks to both these guys for their incredible work.
    19
    For those using the CM nightlies from Eyeballer, he just posted a quick update with GPS working.

    For those wondering what order I'm doing things:

    1. Camera clocking issue (gives 2D camera and camcorder)
    2. Bluetooth Phone audio
    3. Wakelock/Battery life issues (latest builds have *awful* battery life)
    4. -- Alpha Build --
    5. 3D Framework support
    6. 3D Camera/Camcorder/Gallery support
    7. 3D YouTube support
    8. Any critical issues from Alpha
    9. -- Beta Build --
    10. MHL / HDMI mirroring / video output
    11. MHL / HDMI 3D Video out
    12. Any critical issues from Beta
    13. -- Release Candidate --
    14. Bugfix only
    15. -- Official "CM9 Devil Toast" release

    Obviously, this list may change as things are discovered.