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[Q] Recommended website to unlock Lumia 900 (AT&T) UPDATED

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6th May 2012, 05:32 PM   |  #441  
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Lightbulb Oral contracts are vaild
Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Please explain to everyone WHAT CONTRACT did anyone on this thread get that is legal and binding that said they would get their phone unlocked after purchase?

At the point of sale he was given assurance by the salesman that the phone would be unlocked after a call to customer service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

How many contracts have you read that say that what the contract states is what is legal and binding any any other things inferred or implied are null and void?

Is that what was written or said somewhere or are you just throwing that out there? I have NEVER seen anything in my at&t paperwork that says this phone will not be unlocked for 10 months even if the sales person says so. That sounds like something you made up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they arent written on.

Ha! I love the cliches. I find when people don't have a rigorous command of the subject matter they throw out cliches like "buyer beware." Now here is a little history/law lesson. Our modern contract law is based on common law that goes back centuries. It did not come into existence with Windows 7, Microsoft word 2010 and HP laser printers. For centuries there have been farmers, black smiths, bakers who were functionally illiterate and couldn't even spell their names who entered into verbal contracts. They have had their cases heard and settled in civil courts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawfirms.com

Nevertheless, is it reasonable to assume that no oral contracts would ever be binding from a legal perspective? No, it wouldnítóin fact, all oral contracts are legally binding.

Link.

Verbal contracts are more difficult to prove but they absolutely carry as much weight as written contracts. Furthermore we are talking about a credit card dispute. You obviously have never filed a successful credit card dispute. The burden of proof in a civil trial is not 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt. That's for criminal. You just need a preponderance of the evidence to support your case. Secondly the first step isn't even a legal proceeding. It is a credit card dispute. It has an even lower (in my experience) burden of proof than a civil case. If you have never filed a successful credit card dispute why don't you listen to those of us who have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

You will NEVER get an AT&T person in to court admitting he said you could so you are dead in the water.

You really think they fly lawyers AND store sales people and managers to different locations for small claims court cases?! They fly a single lawyer out RARELY. Most of the time they know it's just not cost effective to fly a lawyer out to fight over $500 or a FREE unlock code. Plus small claims court is way down the line. A letter to the CEO should clear this up. If not a credit card dispute probably will. After that small claims court is the last resort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawfirms.com

Also, taking action that would suggest the existence of an oral contract could be considered course of conduct evidence. For instance, if you pay a paperboy to deliver a newspaper for a week, but later change your mind and refuse to pay, you would be unable to claim that a verbal agreement for newspaper delivery never existed.
Credibility of the Parties

The credibility of the party can also be established or questioned in court. This isnít the same thing as witness credibility or character credibility. Itís more a matter of proving that an individual action or statement was credible or incredible. If a person walks inside a restaurant and orders food then itís understood that a binding oral contract is made. Claiming that one thought the food was free (if not explicitly stated) and refusing to pay for the service would be an incredible incident, and unlikely to hold up in court.

In court no one has to admit anything. You show up with a receipt for $500, a Canadian driver's license, and a Canadian SIM then it's up to at&t to explain what conversation went on. It is HIGHLY implausible that someone would go in and buy a $500 phone after being told repeatedly that it would not work in Canada. It is also highly implausible that someone would come in and say I want to spend $500 on a phone you are giving away for free and a sales person wouldn't ask why. It is also highly implausible if our Canadian friend lied for some reason and said he was going to use it on at&t the sales person wouldn't open the box and activate it on their account or at least check for upgrade possibilities.

If at&t rejects the story of our friends' from Canada they will have to come up with their own. In small claims court judges ask questions. They don't just sit there passively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Again, as I said. When I am doing something with a company that differs from the norm I get the facts from the people who actually make the effort rather than salespeople.

Well the sale has been made already. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Let's concentrate on actually solving the current problem instead of scolding these poor guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Here is a For instance that has to do with AT&T......

Several years ago I was no...

Yeah these people live in a different country. They may not have the time or resources to drive/fly down and talk to every store/district manager. If they've already lobbed in a few phone calls it's time to start the letter part of the saga. The problem with credit card disputes is there is a relatively short window to do them. And you need to send a certified letter to the head honchos at at&t and give them a reasonable amount of time to respond.

Here is really the fundamental problem. You have never done a credit card dispute. There are certain specific things you must do in a timely manner that will dramatically increase your chances of success. Wasting time making a bunch of phone calls after your initial calls have failed runs down the clock. Every remedy you have suggested depends on the customer waiting around for at&t in its beneficence to bestow upon you what it sees fit. How about this? Ask at&t politely a couple of times and then take the decision out of their hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Good luck geting your phones unlock I am sure it will happen sooner or later. There is just no point in railing on here against AT&T it won't get you what you want and threatening lawsuits is futile.

My phone is fine locked. I am using at&t. Giving people advice about how to solve their problems without anymore verbal confrontations isn't "railing on here against at&t." I actually find sending a certified letter to the CEO of a company a very calming experience. Once I start the process I know within roughly 60 days it will be resolved. I don't need to depend on the opinion of strangers on the internet. If the company doesn't acquiesce my credit card will give me all my money back. No confrontations. No waiting around for at&t's largess. Simple clean straight forward.

To the Canadians that are still reading this post please get started on your dispute ASAP. There is a time limit. If you wait too long then you will be dependent either on at&t's charity or the court system. And please don't forget this thread. Report back with what you did and the result good or bad. I am always eager to learn if there are any flaws in my strategy.

Do not let internet trolls discourage you. It is your time limit. Once the time limit is up internet trolls aren't going to renew it for you. Use your remaining time wisely.
Last edited by sitizenx; 6th May 2012 at 06:13 PM. Reason: grammar
6th May 2012, 05:59 PM   |  #442  
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sitizenx,

You just DON'T GET IT. Your reading ability is like that of someone with ADD. You pick apart sentances and take things out of context and then post arguments against that piece instead of the entire thought.

I never questioned the legality of a verbal contract. Their usefullness and proveability are what I questioned. Thus the conclussion that they are worthless.

Just as you say AT&T won't spend money to file a lawsuit the vast majority of those who cry "lawsuit" don't do anything either and AT&T knows that as well. Joe citizen has less money than AT&T does to file suit and proving what was said in the store 6 months to 2 years later depending on court loads will be impossible and by then you will have your unlock code. Good luck finding someone to take that case on contingency.

You claim to have an unlocked phone, I don't see where you explained how you achieved that?! You give advice about mailing letters to CEO's but I don't see you saying that is how YOU achieved an unlock?!

In the end most of the folks wanting an unlock code will end up with one from a 3rd party source or from AT&T in a few months.

Otherwise do what I said, go to the store and press on until they offer a refund because the store people CAN NOT get you an unlock code. You may end up swallowing the restock fee but that depends on how much fighting you want to do. Personally I wouldnt pay it if I were promised an unlock at the time of sale.

Lol nice edit there bud....
Last edited by hx4700 Killer; 6th May 2012 at 06:03 PM.
6th May 2012, 06:42 PM   |  #443  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

I never questioned the legality of a verbal contract. Their usefullness and proveability are what I questioned. Thus the conclussion that they are worthless.

Everything from legality to provability was discussed in my post with a link to a source. Your assumption I guess is the concepts of "course of conduct" and "credibility of parties" does not exist. Other sources and common sense dispute that. Or maybe you are just ignoring that part of my detailed post for some reason.

Link.

Again someone shows up in court with a Canadian passport/driver's license, a Canadian sim card, and a receipt for a $500 purchase. It is highly improbably that this state of affairs came about without some discussion of unlocking the phone. It is also highly improbable this state of affair came about after the customer was told prior to the purchase emphatically by the sales staff that the $500 device in question would be useless for his purposes.

This is a civil matter. It does NOT require 100% certitude. All that is required is a preponderance of the evidence in your favor. If at&t says our Canadian friends are lying then they will have to come up with their own more plausible story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Just as you say AT&T won't spend money to file a lawsuit the vast majority of those who cry "lawsuit" don't do anything either and AT&T knows that as well.

Didn't I say not to even mention "lawsuit" in the first letter!? Or was that a different thread I'm thinking of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sitizenx

Frankly I wouldn't even mention the whole lawsuit angle in your initial letter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Just as you say AT&T won't spend money to file a lawsuit the vast majority of those who cry "lawsuit" don't do anything either and AT&T knows that as well.

What on earth are you talking about?! Who said anything about at&t filing a lawsuit?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Your reading ability is like that of someone with ADD.

Err... okay, professor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Joe citizen has less money than AT&T does to file suit and proving what was said in the store 6 months to 2 years later depending on court loads will be impossible and by then you will have your unlock code.

What part of CREDIT CARD DISPUTE is not clear? Court is the last resort as I clearly stated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sitizenx

Plus small claims court is way down the line. A letter to the CEO should clear this up. If not a credit card dispute probably will. After that small claims court is the last resort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Good luck finding someone to take that case on contingency.

What part of SMALL CLAIMS COURT do you not understand? Who hires a $5,000 lawyer to fight over either a $500 phone or a FREE unlock code in small claims court?! Look if you don't know how credit card disputes or small claim court works that is fine. Most people don't but please don't contradict people who have been successful with both. I see you are in Texas. Let me do you a favor. This is from Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Abbott

Small claims court can sometimes be an alternative to litigation. Small claims court does not require you to hire an attorney. You are required to pay a filing fee, which ranges approximately from $70 to $100, and you can sue for an amount up to $10,000 (up from $5000 prior to 2007).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Otherwise do what I said, go to the store and pre…

For the umpteenth time these people live in another country. They may not have the time money or inclination to fly/drive for hours to engage in a possibly fruitless endeavor. If they live in Windsor and can cross one bridge and be in Detroit that's one thing. If they are in Edmonton a $5 letter with delivery confirmation may be cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Joe citizen has less money than AT&T does to file suit...

It costs a whopping $70-$100 to file a small claims case in your home state. If you can scrape up $500 bucks to buy what is now a paperweight I'm pretty sure you can pay $70 to file a small claims case. If not then your priorities are way off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

You claim to have an unlocked phone, I don't see where you explained how you achieved that?!

My phone is NOT unlocked. I am on at&t. I have no need for an unlocked phone at this time. My purpose here is to help other people either get their phone unlocked or get their money refunded. I cannot guarantee an unlocked phone. If at any time before the credit card charge back at&t offers a 100% refund people have to take it. They cannot refuse and demand an unlock code. The credit card will not accept that. Furthermore, I am totally just guessing but I think the court system will not demand an unlock code either. If they offer a 100% refund I would think a judge would say you have to accept that.
Last edited by sitizenx; 6th May 2012 at 07:34 PM. Reason: grammar
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6th May 2012, 07:37 PM   |  #444  
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x, were done here.

Small claims court vs going to the store?! WHERE are they going to file? In Canada? Fat lot of good that will do. So NOW they need to come to the US to go to small claims court? Your logic is flawed.

A letter to the CEO is fine but won't yield real, timely results over paying an unlocker. It will most likely get responded to by the public relations people.

I do agree with the credit card refusing charges approach but that will be a big burden of proof as well.

I have gotten as much as $50 refunded with a phone call to the CC no questions asked. I suspect $500 will be much harder because they will have the buyers signature on file that is just below their terms of purchase/service.
6th May 2012, 08:36 PM   |  #445  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

Small claims court vs going to the store?!

I notice you keep ignoring the fact that multiple remedies were offered that do NOT involve going to small claims court. You also keep ignoring the fact I have stated multiple times small claims court is a last resort. I don't know why you are fixated on the last and least likely resort. There is a concept of escalation that you just don't want to accept.

You also seem to ignore the fact that these people live in another country and there may be significant geographical hindrances to strolling to an at&t store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

A letter to the CEO is fine but won't yield real, timely results over paying an unlocker. It will most likely get responded to by the public relations people.

Last time I did this it resulted in a $1000 check. Of course it gets responded to by public relations but it isn't some BS nobody in the customer service department who won't even give you their last name. A well written polite objective letter sent certified mail to the CEO of a large US corporation in my experience yields different results than a "To Whom It May Concern:" noncertified letter to a general customer service address. I am just reporting my experience and results. Oh and with my 14 calender day stipulation this did happen in a timely fashion. Look if you have never done this just let those of us who have done it successfully tell our experience. I don't know why you wish for this knowledge to be suppressed. It's just another option. You should do what you are comfortable with and let the rest of us discuss other viable options. Ultimately it is up to each of use to choose how we wish to proceed.

Oh and by the way the other big reason for the certified letter to the CEO is because in the very unlikely scenario you do file a small claims case... you have the option of filing it against him/her. You have a paper trail indicating you contacted them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

WHERE are they going to file? In Canada? Fat lot of good that will do. So NOW they need to come to the US to go to small claims court? Your logic is flawed.

First you can't file in Canada. Second you do NOT have to travel to file in most instances. Check the state attorney general's website for the state where you made the purchase. You will have to travel for the hearing. But should you win your expenses (ie car mileage, airplane ticket, hotel, etc) will be paid by at&t. If you fly to the store directly and haggle with the manager there is no way they are going to pay for your airplane ticket even if they give you a refund or unlock code. Not going to happen.

I am trying to help people that may have a geographic impediment to going to an at&t store. I do not know why you refuse to accept that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

I do agree with the credit card refusing charges approach but that will be a big burden of proof as well.

I have filed a credit card dispute on multiple occasions. If you have made a reasonable effort to resolve your dispute with a retailer and provide the credit card with your letters, receipt, and in this instance proof of residence I have had a 100% success rate with disputes. On top of that if it works you keep the phone AND the $500. The key is you must make a bona fide effort to get the matter resolved with at&t including accepting a 100% refund if offered. I never lie. I just tell the truth and I am above all else reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hx4700 Killer

I have gotten as much as $50 refunded with a phone call to the CC no questions asked. I suspect $500 will be much harder because they will have the buyers signature on file that is just below their terms of purchase/service.

I have gotten $3,000. I don't "suspect" anything. I KNOW. $500 is chump change. $50 isn't even worth mentioning. And that $3K didn't include the $2,000 insurance claim I was also paid by a third party connected to that fiasco. If the credit card dispute works that's $500 back on the credit card and a FREE (locked) Lumia 900. Not sure how much "hard" work people are will to do for $500. How much are internet trolls making an hour these days?!

What irritates me about this whole exchange is I am discussing things I have actually done that have resulted in acceptable results 100% of the time. Someone else who hasn't even attempted any of my more advanced suggestions keeps digging in their heels and saying no, no, no. I've actually won multiple credit card disputes totaling thousands of dollars. You would think I would know roughly what level of proof is required to win most of the time.

Sheesh. I guess I should just erase my memory and rely on the conjecture of some complete stranger on the internet who has never done what I did successfully multiple times.
Last edited by sitizenx; 6th May 2012 at 08:48 PM.
6th May 2012, 08:44 PM   |  #446  
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guys it would be cool, if we just stop the bickering, let's go back to our positive vibe here

Here's hoping we can get a solution soon
6th May 2012, 09:07 PM   |  #447  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zilab

guys it would be cool, if we just stop the bickering, let's go back to our positive vibe here

Here's hoping we can get a solution soon

Sorry for the "bickering."

I just want people to be informed consumers and know that there are options despite what corporations tell you. If someone should find themselves in the unfortunate situation I was discussing there are multiple options. One should do the cheap, easy options first and then escalate. The steps that I think one should follow are...

1) Call customer service and ask for an unlock code
2) Assuming geography isn't a barrier go the the store you bought the phone from and ask them to call Customer service or give you a 100% refund with no restocking fee
3) Write a polite objective succint letter to the CEO explaining the problem and stating explicitly what remedies you are willing to accept (ie unlocked phone or 100% refund with no fees). Stipulate that you must hear back from them in 14 Calendar days so they don't pull any 6-8 week nonsense.
4) Credit card dispute. Check to see what your credit card policy is regarding disputes. Next call them and tell them you want to file a dispute. They will most likely tell you you must do it in writing. You are going to have to mail your supporting documents anyway. Then mail them a copy of your receipt, your polite letter to the CEO, the CEOs brush off letter he mailed you, proof of Canadian residence (they should know this anyway. they are your credit card after all), and finally a brief, professional letter stating why you are disputing the charge. Make sure all letters at least have delivery confirmation. You must file the credit card dispute in a timely manner.
5) Small claims court. No lawyer needed. Relatively small fee to file. Only have to show up for the court date. Bring all your supporting documents and be organized. You will only have a few minutes to explain to a judge who has never heard of an unlocked cell phone what you want. Keep receipts for EVERYTHING during this saga. If you win in small claims court you can ask for at&t to reimburse all of it. Have the receipts organized and the final sum totaled up on the day of the hearing. Include all your travel expense for the case. Include the costs of certified letters, hotel, etc.

Just work your way from 1 to 6 until you either get a 100% refund or an unlocked phone. There is no reason to get emotional or upset about it. Just walk through the steps methodically and watch your dates. After steps 1-3 the thing is out of you and at&t's hands. It is either up to the credit card or a judge to decide.

If you meet with success or failure please report back. I am always curious to know how these steps work for other people. I am NOT a lawyer. There is a lot I do not know. I am always eager to learn more from people with real life experience.
Last edited by sitizenx; 6th May 2012 at 09:10 PM.
6th May 2012, 09:14 PM   |  #448  
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First off, I just want to say I was speaking generally, so no offense and sorry in advanced.

---
Personally, I'd rather wait for the end of the exclusivity date and decide from there. I'm also optimistic that we'll get our unlock codes sooner than later.

I also do appreciate for the wealth of knowledge this thread has given, so Kudos to that

So here's hoping we get more tangible results soon
6th May 2012, 11:14 PM   |  #449  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zilab

First off, I just want to say I was speaking generally, so no offense and sorry in advanced.

---
Personally, I'd rather wait for the end of the exclusivity date and decide from there. I'm also optimistic that we'll get our unlock codes sooner than later.

I also do appreciate for the wealth of knowledge this thread has given, so Kudos to that

So here's hoping we get more tangible results soon

Well said. I think this thread should remain on topic and be for those of us willing to patiently await codes from a legit unlocker. While the efforts of others are appreciated for those seeking alternate routes.. well maybe there should be a separate thread for that. I'll be heading off to Mexico for a week as of Weds and I'm comfortable feeling that there may be a breakthrough by the time I return.
7th May 2012, 12:08 AM   |  #450  
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In regards to the ATT branded Lumia 900, nobody has the unlock codes for these yet, and no online unlocking service can do them yet.

In regards to the Rogers branded Lumia 900, they can be carrier unlocked and most online services can do it.

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