●► Xperia ZL - Pool of thoughts ◄● experiences, problems, ideas

Search This thread

CokeJunkee

Senior Member
Aug 18, 2011
122
56
●► Xperia ZL - Pool of thoughts ◄● experiences, problems, ideas

.


Hello there, dear friends and ZL users, fans and haters.

Sadly, there are lots of threads on the ZL forum (and other places on the web) talking about the different hardware failures
our phone has to offer, such as dead batteries, cracking noise on the mic, dead pixles on the camera, flickering displays,
proximity and other sensors not working, LEDs not flashing and phones that just don't want to boot from the very first day.

Personally, I've never had any of those faults even though I consider myself a power user, flashing roms, kernels and mods
on a daily basis, playing around with voltage levels and even taking the whole device apart.
I've got the phone since may last year and it's still running like it should. A few friends of mine also own the ZL and they
didn't experience any hardware problems neither.
So I'm asking myself why there are so many faulty devices out there..

I would love to see some ideas and opinions about the actual hardware and how Xperias could/should develop in the future,
read some stories about your experiences with the phone and the Sony warranty service.
What do you think about the look and feel?
Are things like cameras, buttons and sensors placed in the right corners?
Any thoughts on material and build quality?
Why did you buy it and would you buy it again?
How should a possible ZL successor be for you to buy it?
What functions would you like to see in future Xperias that others already have?
..etc..
There might be some Sony folks out there who actually read xda forums and who knows..


Please also post some infos like device model, the rom you're running, BL and root status and where and when you've bought it.


.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: xyge and nebixts

CokeJunkee

Senior Member
Aug 18, 2011
122
56
Mine:
- Xperia ZL C6503, bought at a store around the corner (Germany) in may 2013
- running PAC-man rom (2014.01.22 nightly)
- BL is unlocked
- got root access
- voltages back to normal
- hardware problems: none so far. (well, there is one single tiny dead pixel on the display, but its so small I can't really see it)


For me it had to be a phone that can handle LTE traffic and it should have a non-glass back and a dedicated camera button.
Honestly, I don't understand why it is so hard for those companies to attach a camera button to their devices..
Coming from Galaxy S3, I wanted a whole new design (and sony did a good job here!) and a phone without an EFS-partition
that could accidentally be deleted running my phone useless..
So it had to be the ZL, but I had concerns from the beginning as the ZL was released at the same time as the Z and there
was almost no publicity for the ZL on the media. I knew sooner or later Sony might abandon the ZL.

The only thing I really don't like, is the non removable battery (that's a plus for Samsung).


Your turn. :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: nebixts

scifan

Senior Member
Dec 7, 2008
1,269
227
Hmmm...

Mine:
- Xperia ZL C6506, bought via the Bitcoinstore November 2013
- running 0.101 stock
- BL is unlocked
- got root access
- No hardware issues to date.

Basically the ZL was a target of opportunity. My wife was having all sorts of difficulties with her Samsung S2, and I bought this thinking she would like it (one of her biggest complaints was the lack of a camera button...) turns out she liked touchwiz more than she missed the camera button... oh, and the S3 screen's brighter (wider viewing angle, deeper blacks, etc)... so I swapped... and this is a faster phone, I personally like it better than the S3. The viewing angles do bother me if I'm trying to use my phone while it's laying on a table... (if the brightness is lower)... I personally find the images it takes decent. I miss the excess of developers... the ZL seems to have a few developers, but most of those are primarily using another device and therefore aren't as invested in keeping things going on the ZL - and I'm not much of a developer... (don't have the hardware to monkey around for fear of hosing my primary phone).
 
  • Like
Reactions: CokeJunkee

ATRIXXIRTA

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2012
2,434
768
The Shangri-La Motel
My Turn:
- Xperia ZL C5606, Won at a launch event March 2013
- Running AOKP 2/8/14 Nightlie, but bounce between AOKP, CM and Omni.
- Using allspark's kernel with double tap to wake (best feature ever!)
- Unlock BL
- Rooted
- Hardware issue: Numerous dead pixels in my camera!!

I actually ended up winning this phone at a launch even in Toronto (Canada) back when I worked for Rogers, Canadas largest (and most criminal) company. Before this i had the LG Optimus G. That was basically the same phone (same processor, ram and GPU setup), but I gotta say it was a nicer phone physically. It also had a MUCH nicer display, even though it was only 720P. But the camera on the Optimus G was GARBAGE!! Anyone ever use the Nexus 4 camera? Ya, its the same one. Also the back of the LG was cracked when i bought it, which that phone had a problem with. But for 100$ it was a steal! I kept the ZL over the G for the camera quality, and expandable storage.
Little did i know that the camera on the ZL would crap out on me too! It workse fine, but i have a BOATLOAD of dead pixels in my lens, you'll see in my pic. Otherwise Im happy with the ZL. I love the screen to bezel ratio also, another reason i kept it. Also, sony developer world is fantastic about releasing source code, so we get support from all the major players like Cyanogenmod, AOKP, P.A.C and OmniRom, all officially, not just ports. The picture included is just a shot of my comp screen with a blank white word doc. I tried to get it out of focus so the dead pixels show up more.

7uqudepa.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CokeJunkee

nebixts

Senior Member
May 6, 2013
115
54
DKI JAKARTA
ZL was great

Mine is as you can see on my signature. ok

Honestly...

ZL is my dream device after i have xperia L, and couple month later, i bought this ZL on januari 2014 with enthusiastic n happy.
until now, so far so good n no hardware fault or error.

I dont like from ZL is two :

1. the non removable battery.
2. placement of the front camera, why "sony" have to put there.

that's my opinion of my ZL.

thanks.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CokeJunkee

Kohelet

Member
Sep 15, 2013
35
21
Ashburn, VA
kohelet.tech
.


I would love to see some ideas and opinions about the actual hardware and how Xperias could/should develop in the future,
read some stories about your experiences with the phone and the Sony warranty service.

I've never really dealt with Sony warranty service, but when I went to buy my ZL from a Sony Outlet Store the customer service was pretty awesome. I've since gone back and bought an Xperia Tablet Z (which I sold recently) and an Xperia Z Ultra (to take the place of the XTZ as my tablet).


Why did you buy it and would you buy it again?

I originally bought it because I wanted to switch back to Android after a year of Windows Phone use. I ended up deciding to go with Sony because of how awesome they've been as far as working with the open-source development community. I went with the ZL because it supports LTE on T-mobile and because I liked the reviews. Considering that I bought a second one (my first has bootloader unlock allowed: no), I'd say it's true that I'd buy it again.

What do you think about the look and feel?

I'm a fan of it. I'm not really picky about that sort of thing, but it feels good in the hands and so far has been a very pleasant device to use.


Please also post some infos like device model, the rom you're running, BL and root status and where and when you've bought it.

Model: C6506
Rom: AOKP Kitkat nightly
BL: Unlocked
Rooted: Yes
 
  • Like
Reactions: CokeJunkee

safuan7822

Senior Member
May 12, 2012
131
7
My turn, very simple brief

Nothin is bothering me so far. Used it for ova a year. Stock no root. Just minor prob which i can live with :

1 . Not dead pixel but lense problem
tiny little dots. Only when snap picture
(not that obvious)

2. 2secs delay on wake up. ( after the latest update). Ima wait for upcoming updates that maybe can sort it out. ( hopefully )

No other problems or watsoever.



Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app
 

ATRIXXIRTA

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2012
2,434
768
The Shangri-La Motel
My turn, very simple brief

Nothin is bothering me so far. Used it for ova a year. Stock no root. Just minor prob which i can live with :

1 . Not dead pixel but lense problem
tiny little dots. Only when snap picture
(not that obvious)

2. 2secs delay on wake up. ( after the latest update). Ima wait for upcoming updates that maybe can sort it out. ( hopefully )

No other problems or watsoever.



Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app

Over a year you say?? How did you get your hands on one 2 1/2 months before it was released? lol ;)

Sent from my C6503 using Tapatalk
 

safuan7822

Senior Member
May 12, 2012
131
7
Dude dont lol me ova nothing. Bought lt it on feb 2013 right before the official product launching. :rolleyes:

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app
 

ATRIXXIRTA

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2012
2,434
768
The Shangri-La Motel
Dude dont lol me ova nothing. Bought lt it on feb 2013 right before the official product launching. :rolleyes:

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app

Dude, I will lol who I want when I want "ova" what I want, LOL

I won one of these devices back in March, BEFORE the official launch date.

Mine came DIRECTLY from Sony.

And they said they couldn't ship it until the Official launch day of April 1st.

Im not calling you a liar, I just wanna see a receipt ;)
 
Last edited:

ATRIXXIRTA

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2012
2,434
768
The Shangri-La Motel
I unfortunately have some problems with the camera - namely a black dot that appears in all images I take with it like this one:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlrswlsy3jnfw12/DSC_0015.JPG

I contacted Sony about it, awaiting an answer now to see if it's covered by the warranty.

I am also using the stock rom and I am rooted - Additionally, the Compass seems to mostly not work.

Consider yourself lucky!

I have 8 of those bastards in my pictures!!
 

safuan7822

Senior Member
May 12, 2012
131
7
Dude dont lol me ova nothing. Bought lt it on feb 2013 right before the official product launching. :rolleyes:

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app

Dude it was officially launched on 6th march in my country. I got it in feb thru a friend. Well let me find the receipt as ive send it to sony for warranty purposes.

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app
 

ATRIXXIRTA

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2012
2,434
768
The Shangri-La Motel
Dude it was officially launched on 6th march in my country. I got it in feb thru a friend. Well let me find the receipt as ive send it to sony for warranty purposes.

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app

Thats sweet.

Those bastards wouldn't send me mine until Apr 1st.

I was at a pre-release event in March, and they had a bunch of demo units, but said they weren't the final product, and that they had some bugs.

Either they were full of crap, or maybe they were 502 units, which don't have the LTE bands needed for my country (Canada).

I never thought to check the build or unit number back then because I didn't think about them releasing different variants.

Wheres the speaker grill located on your unit?

I've seen some pics floating around of pre-release units that have the speaker grill on top of the camera rather than the side. Looks way better.
 

safuan7822

Senior Member
May 12, 2012
131
7
Thats sweet.

Those bastards wouldn't send me mine until Apr 1st.

I was at a pre-release event in March, and they had a bunch of demo units, but said they weren't the final product, and that they had some bugs.

Either they were full of crap, or maybe they were 502 units, which don't have the LTE bands needed for my country (Canada).

I never thought to check the build or unit number back then because I didn't think about them releasing different variants.

Wheres the speaker grill located on your unit?

I've seen some pics floating around of pre-release units that have the speaker grill on top of the camera rather than the side. Looks way better.

Oh right,

speaking of that, mine is not an LTE version. They were duin some pre released and some sort of competitions. I wasnt aware of zl untill my sgnote gave up on me. Never had sony in my mind anyway. At the same time saw my friend hes a phone distributor. Sold the unpack zl which im using now. I guess mine is the earlier version or some sort of demo version which i did not aware of. But, its funny tho, that my speaker grill is on the right side of the lense. I guess they shipped out different version for different country for warranty purposes.. Im not too sure ;)

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATRIXXIRTA

ATRIXXIRTA

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2012
2,434
768
The Shangri-La Motel
Yours sounds like a normal unit as far as I can tell. Have you seen pics of this pre-release model? It's weird.but I think looks better.

ysamuret.jpg


Sent from my C6503 using Tapatalk
 

viskon

Senior Member
May 4, 2011
327
56
Till I chanced on this thread, I never noticed the dead pixels on the camera. Now I can't stop thinking about about them.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 4
 

safuan7822

Senior Member
May 12, 2012
131
7
Yours sounds like a normal unit as far as I can tell. Have you seen pics of this pre-release model? It's weird.but I think looks better.

ysamuret.jpg


Sent from my C6503 using Tapatalk

Weird... Never seen this before. Is it with textured back? From what i can see it is flat smooth. But yeh it looks way better. Wher did u get this pics from?

Sent from my C6502 using xda app-developers app
 

needmoregigs

Senior Member
Aug 16, 2009
138
14
An interesting thing happened to me recently. The faulty battery problem killed my phone right after I finished installing the .569 update. I won't bore you with the details of the symptoms since it's been covered extensively here. Needless to say, I had to call up Sony for a warranty service repair. Luckily I am running bone stock and had no worries about being covered or not. I sent the phone in to their service center and got my phone back 10 business days later.

They replaced:
  • Battery
  • Battery connector
  • Front assembly
  • Battery ground
  • All buttons
  • Misc. screws
  • Speaker cover
  • Mic cover
  • Misc. adhesives

It's funny because they replaced almost all cosmetic parts except for the back cover and SIM/SD card door.

*** I should warn all users who are thinking about officially unlocking their bootloader or opening up your phone to hold off on doing anything that would void your warranty. You never know what can go wrong with the phone. ***

As for the phone, I think it's one of the best on the market. The 4.3 update made it much smoother and more enjoyable to use. I no longer mess around with custom ROM all the time. I find that stock is best for what I need to phone to do. I need the thing to be rock solid stable; it is a tool to get my work done so I need everything to work. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is, but stock is the most stable. The skin is feature rich enough without being bloated. It is more charming than pure Android.

I had to use my old Galaxy Nexus while the ZL was out for repairs. The difference was so noticeable that I am very happy to be back using the ZL. The Galaxy Nexus would stutter at the most simple tasks if I've been using it heavily. The home screen would blank out and have to redraw constantly. The ZL has been more cooperative when it comes to being able to handle a heavier workload. I recently bought the Xperia Z1S for my brother, and that thing is a beast. It can handle more tasks without slowing down. The speed difference is less noticeable than the Galaxy Nexus to the ZL, but I wouldn't complain if someone bought it for me.

My next phone will be a waterproof one for sure. I like Sony's design language and skin so I think I will stick with them. I don't think I will buy a new phone anytime soon though, but if I were, I would look for something that is similar in dimensions to the ZL with all the features of the waterproof ones.
 

Top Liked Posts

  • There are no posts matching your filters.
  • 3
    An interesting thing happened to me recently. The faulty battery problem killed my phone right after I finished installing the .569 update. I won't bore you with the details of the symptoms since it's been covered extensively here. Needless to say, I had to call up Sony for a warranty service repair. Luckily I am running bone stock and had no worries about being covered or not. I sent the phone in to their service center and got my phone back 10 business days later.

    They replaced:
    • Battery
    • Battery connector
    • Front assembly
    • Battery ground
    • All buttons
    • Misc. screws
    • Speaker cover
    • Mic cover
    • Misc. adhesives

    It's funny because they replaced almost all cosmetic parts except for the back cover and SIM/SD card door.

    *** I should warn all users who are thinking about officially unlocking their bootloader or opening up your phone to hold off on doing anything that would void your warranty. You never know what can go wrong with the phone. ***

    As for the phone, I think it's one of the best on the market. The 4.3 update made it much smoother and more enjoyable to use. I no longer mess around with custom ROM all the time. I find that stock is best for what I need to phone to do. I need the thing to be rock solid stable; it is a tool to get my work done so I need everything to work. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is, but stock is the most stable. The skin is feature rich enough without being bloated. It is more charming than pure Android.

    I had to use my old Galaxy Nexus while the ZL was out for repairs. The difference was so noticeable that I am very happy to be back using the ZL. The Galaxy Nexus would stutter at the most simple tasks if I've been using it heavily. The home screen would blank out and have to redraw constantly. The ZL has been more cooperative when it comes to being able to handle a heavier workload. I recently bought the Xperia Z1S for my brother, and that thing is a beast. It can handle more tasks without slowing down. The speed difference is less noticeable than the Galaxy Nexus to the ZL, but I wouldn't complain if someone bought it for me.

    My next phone will be a waterproof one for sure. I like Sony's design language and skin so I think I will stick with them. I don't think I will buy a new phone anytime soon though, but if I were, I would look for something that is similar in dimensions to the ZL with all the features of the waterproof ones.
    2
    ●► Xperia ZL - Pool of thoughts ◄● experiences, problems, ideas

    .


    Hello there, dear friends and ZL users, fans and haters.

    Sadly, there are lots of threads on the ZL forum (and other places on the web) talking about the different hardware failures
    our phone has to offer, such as dead batteries, cracking noise on the mic, dead pixles on the camera, flickering displays,
    proximity and other sensors not working, LEDs not flashing and phones that just don't want to boot from the very first day.

    Personally, I've never had any of those faults even though I consider myself a power user, flashing roms, kernels and mods
    on a daily basis, playing around with voltage levels and even taking the whole device apart.
    I've got the phone since may last year and it's still running like it should. A few friends of mine also own the ZL and they
    didn't experience any hardware problems neither.
    So I'm asking myself why there are so many faulty devices out there..

    I would love to see some ideas and opinions about the actual hardware and how Xperias could/should develop in the future,
    read some stories about your experiences with the phone and the Sony warranty service.
    What do you think about the look and feel?
    Are things like cameras, buttons and sensors placed in the right corners?
    Any thoughts on material and build quality?
    Why did you buy it and would you buy it again?
    How should a possible ZL successor be for you to buy it?
    What functions would you like to see in future Xperias that others already have?
    ..etc..
    There might be some Sony folks out there who actually read xda forums and who knows..


    Please also post some infos like device model, the rom you're running, BL and root status and where and when you've bought it.


    .
    2
    So I've bought my ZL in July last year. Ordered it from eBay, from the US. The total cost of the device plus import fees to Greece added up to 630 euros but I do not regret a single cent. The first night I received my phone, I went out to celebrate and dropped it on concrete from a height of about 1.2m. My screen has no shatterproof film because that's the first thing I removed when I unlocked it. So what happened? It hit the ground with the right upper corner of the device, bounced once and landed on the screen. Imagine what was going through my mind as my phone was sitting face down on the concrete. "it's probably dead. Shattered into a million pieces". Well I pick it up expecting to have to punch myself in the face for my stupidity only to discover that the phone is fine. Not even a single scratch on the screen. Even without that godawful screen film. And the corner that made contact with the concrete? The slightest of scuff marks that actually disappeared after a few days because of my phone constantly being taken in and out of jeans pockets (and the inherited friction that comes from that).

    Let's talk form factor. I bought the ZL to replace my galaxy note OG. I did this because of two reasons: the galaxy note was a big clunky beast of a device with a great screen but horrible design, looks and feel; second reason was because I hated (and still hate) capacitive buttons. The first time I saw a leaked picture of the ZL, I fell in love with it. The bezel, or lack thereof, the dedicated two-step camera button, the textured rough back, the screen size relative to the phone size and last but not least the design philosophy that still has me stating at this beautiful black slab of a phone that I've been using daily, heavily, for nearly a year now. I just love looking at it and I've yet to see anything on the market that captures my eye as strongly as the ZL did. The fact that the corners of the phone are also quite sharp unlike most other phones out there (especially Samsung) is also a huge draw for me. I want my device to be as square ad possible and I'm waiting for the day when I'll see a completely square phone with sharp corners.

    Now onto hardware. The camera of the ZL is decent to good. Great if using proper camera software. This of you running stock Sony roms can atest to the quality of the pictures shot with the ZL + stock Sony camera software. Even on AOSP based roms, the quality is on par with most other devices out there that came out the same year as the ZL. I have no dead pixels on my camera so I guess I was lucky with that. Also there's a flash. The flash is great. I love flash on phones. Not because it's useful for taking pictures at night (it's not) but because it doubles as a flashlight which adds functionality to the phone.
    The screen of the ZL and it's amazing 441ppi is quite beautiful to look at, nice and bright for the most part and doesn't mess up and oversaturate colors like Samsung screens. That being said, it suffers from the well known visibility angle issue with some people hate. Personally I have no issue with the viewing angles. I always stare straight into my phone whenever I use it. If it's on the table and I get a message or something, I don't unlock it and leave it on the table and look at it from a crooked angle. I bring it close to my face at a 90 degree viewing angle which negates any viewing angle issues.
    The placement of the hardware buttons is also a beautiful and really handy thing for me. I'm left-handed and I mainly operate the phone with my left hand. Because of the way the phone fits in my hand I have access to all four physical buttons at the same time. I could technically press them all together at once if I so desired, which speaks volumes to the ergonomics of the phone.
    The ZL's speaker is probably one of it's only major faults in my opinion. It sounds horrible for anything other than the moet basic notification sounds and ring tones. Music through the speaker? Forget it, you might as well stab yourself in the ears with a fork. That being said, I knew what I was getting into prior to my purchase, so together with my ZL, I purchased a Philips Bluetooth speaker for when I feel like bothering other people with my music.
    I guess I should say a thing or two about the internals since those are hardware as well. Internals are great! Simple, right? The ZL is a fast phone that never disappointed me once speed wise. Fast quad-core Qualcomm CPU, 2 gigs of ram that I have never managed to fill up, and the gpu which, if I'm not mistaken is an adreno 320, together make for a smooth, lagfree android experience. I don't play games on my phone so I can't really say much about that but I'm sure it handles anything you throw at it just fine.
    Call quality is, well, it's fine really. I can hear people just fine and people can hear me just fine. Nothing to complain about there.
    SD card slot is also a great hardware feature that was a big factor in my purchase.
    Lack of removable battery is the only big hardware downside that made me think long and hard before buying my ZL. But as it turns out, the battery life is fine enough, giving me 4 hours of screen time for the most part. Could it be better? Sure, battery life could and should always get better, but until now I've never really felt like other devices are doing a much better job with their battery times compared to my ZL.
    Notification LED was also a big draw for me. It's usefulness is beyond belief when having a chat with someone while your phone is on silent so it doesn't bother people with the notification sounds. As if having a notification LED wasn't enough, the ZL's LED is also insanely pretty to look at and wonderfully positioned at the bottom. I love it and it's a testament to Sony's attention to detail.
    Last but not least on the hardware front is the IR blaster which I've only used once, the day I unboxed my phone, before I flashed CM. IR is a nice feature to have but it's not something I really minded losing when switching to aosp.

    Speaking of aosp, let's talk about software. Nothing I can really say about the stock Sony software experience since I only used it for about 15 minutes. It seemed nice and snappy but a bit bloated. Camera app was great. Onscreen navigation keys are the main reason I left stock behind. I hate giving up screen real-estate to that ugly black band (it being transparent still doesn't make it any better) so I've been using PIE from the day I got my ZL and I've never used anything else since. I love PIE and it makes the phone's interface look do much better and clean.

    Would I buy the ZL again? Definitely. Would I buy the next iteration of the ZL? Not if it looks like the leaked pictures I've seen. I want an even smaller bezel from my next device.

    Oh yes, my phone model is a 6502. Yes the non-lte version. I saw no reason to get the lte one since I barely use mobile data and when I do I use it for things that require barely any fast data. 3g is more than enough for me. Maybe this is why I have no camera dead pixel issues? Maybe the 6502 was spared.
    I'd be curious to hear if other 6502 owners have camera issues.

    Sent from my Xperia ZL
    1
    Mine:
    - Xperia ZL C6503, bought at a store around the corner (Germany) in may 2013
    - running PAC-man rom (2014.01.22 nightly)
    - BL is unlocked
    - got root access
    - voltages back to normal
    - hardware problems: none so far. (well, there is one single tiny dead pixel on the display, but its so small I can't really see it)


    For me it had to be a phone that can handle LTE traffic and it should have a non-glass back and a dedicated camera button.
    Honestly, I don't understand why it is so hard for those companies to attach a camera button to their devices..
    Coming from Galaxy S3, I wanted a whole new design (and sony did a good job here!) and a phone without an EFS-partition
    that could accidentally be deleted running my phone useless..
    So it had to be the ZL, but I had concerns from the beginning as the ZL was released at the same time as the Z and there
    was almost no publicity for the ZL on the media. I knew sooner or later Sony might abandon the ZL.

    The only thing I really don't like, is the non removable battery (that's a plus for Samsung).


    Your turn. :cool:
    1
    Yeah I've always heard good things about it but I mostly just use headphones for my music and the poweramp equalizer does the job fairly well for that. I'm waiting for a real audio fix for out stuttering issue and then I'll give Viper a try.

    If you want to use a stock based firmware and still have pie controls, use LMT Launcher. It's basically pie with some extray functionality ;)