nVidia Grid on Nexus 7

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

A couple of days ago, nVidia presented their new portable gaming device alongside one particular feature. The ability to stream PC games via cloud and from a nVidia powered PC with GFE (equipped with at least kepler Ge Force GTX 650) to any device able to have their Grid client.
This is nothing more than the evolution of what Splashtop brought (with nVidia sponsorship) on CES 2012 (confirmed by nVidia Italy itself on Facebook).
Now during the conference it was stated that the client would have reached every android device (not only Tegra ones nor Project shield) and in the next days some hands-on with different "non-shield" devices were recorded.

Finally also the one recorded on Nexus 7 landed (cortesy of Droid-Life)

here it is:

I honestly think that if there will be the option to customize controls other than the only gamepad, the Nexus 7 could be even a better device that the shield itself for this kind of gaming (even if it lacks the Tegra 4 SoC). Furthermore it will surely be a great boost for android gaming in general (thanks to the direct support of nVidia and their money / partners- compared to the influence of Splashtop Inc.). The staff of the Tegra page on FB confirmed me that Grid (that I intend in its incarnation of both LAN (via GFE) / internet streaming (via third party partners)) will have a different timetable than Project Shield, so I think we'll have the opportunity to enjoy this feature sooner than the release of Shield (maybe at the same time with the announcement of the Nexus 7 successor @ Google I/O or even sooner with an open bea :laugh

AFAinHD · Jan 9, 2013

SimoxTav said:
A couple of days ago, nVidia presented their new portable gaming device alongside one particular feature. The ability to stream PC games via cloud and from a nVidia powered PC with GFE (equipped with at least kepler Ge Force GTX 650) to any device able to have their Grid client.
This is nothing more than the evolution of what Splashtop brought (with nVidia sponsorship) on CES 2012 (confirmed by nVidia Italy itself on Facebook).
Now during the conference it was stated that the client would have reached every android device (not only Tegra ones nor Project shield) and in the next days some hands-on with different "non-shield" devices were recorded.

Finally also the one recorded on Nexus 7 landed (cortesy of Droid-Life)

here it is:

I honestly think that if there will be the option to customize controls other than the only gamepad, the Nexus 7 could be even a better device that the shield itself for this kind of gaming (even if it lacks the Tegra 4 SoC). Furthermore it will surely be a great boost for android gaming in general (thanks to the direct support of nVidia and their money / partners- compared to the influence of Splashtop Inc.). The staff of the Tegra page on FB confirmed me that Grid (that I intend in its incarnation of both LAN (via GFE) / internet streaming (via third party partners)) will have a different timetable than Project Shield, so I think we'll have the opportunity to enjoy this feature sooner than the release of Shield (maybe at the same time with the announcement of the Nexus 7 successor @ Google I/O or even sooner with an open bea :laugh

I used splashtop thd and I was able to play any game even just cause 2 just from streaming from my gaming computer. It worked perfectly fine on my N7 I don't see any reason why I would buy a device like this when I already own a device that can do the same thing.

Sent from my LG-C729 using xda app-developers app

PVL_93_RU · Jan 9, 2013

Splashtop?
What's that?

And is OnLive working with N7?

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

AFAinHD said:
I used splashtop thd and I was able to play any game even just cause 2 just from streaming from my gaming computer. It worked perfectly fine on my N7 I don't see any reason why I would buy a device like this when I already own a device that can do the same thing.

Sent from my LG-C729 using xda app-developers app

Indeed, with the move from nVidia to make the technology available to all android devices, the only benefit compared to Splashtop THD is that the application will be directly supported from nVidia (that is not a startup nor currently involved with iOS).
It wasn't a topic about nVidia Shield but about nVidia Grid (that are 2 different projects with their own roadmap, simple shown together during the conference)

However Splashtop is lacking in the support of their app (several critical bugs are more than 1y old) (p.e. I had to tweak an XML profile via text editor to fix the mouse flickering issue in their app) and they have also to develop the iOS "traditional" version that it's surely more profitable for them than the THD one (in fact talking to their support center their confirmed that are short on resources to fix those bugs in short times).

Furthermore nVidia Grid will be probably free on LAN side (so potentially better than Splashtop), but it will be also available via 3G and 4G/LTE (but the service will be provided by third party owned Grid Server Farm). A feature that Splashtop simply doesn't have

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
Splashtop?
What's that?

And is OnLive working with N7?

I will semplify:

Splashtop = Remote desktop gaming via LAN streaming YOUR OWN hardware (Google Play)

Onlive (as you know) is the same thing of splashtop on the "internet" and is offered as a service with THEIR hardware (is currently in bankrupt due the expensive architecture, a technical problem solved by nVidia Grid with virtualization).

nVidia Grid will be BOTH (for the LAN side supported directly via nVidia through their Geforce Experience Program and for the "Internet" side provided by third party like Playcast)

For OnLive for N7 the device isn't officially supported, but IMHO it should work

PVL_93_RU · Jan 9, 2013

The question is - will Grid work on N7/N10/current top tablets?

Or is it going to be Tegra 4-exclusive?

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

To me...YES!

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
The question is - will Grid work on N7/N10/current top tablets?

Or is it going to be Tegra 4-exclusive?

Grid (for its "internet/cloud" side) for sure, was declared during the conference ((link, look from 0:24:00) and was also shown there (even if in a limited environment having the rack next to the devices and not "on the internet"). To see other devices running it there is the video in the opening post and several other hands on showing it running on N7, HTC X and LG Smart TVs.

Grid (-or whatever it's called- for its "LAN" side, basically the evolution of Splashtop THD streamer) is currently promoted only on the Shield Project page but considering that is the same H.264 compressed stream that travel from a server to a client but in a local environment, if it can works on internet, why shouldn't work on local? If what Mr Huang said ("as long as you have a mobile processor able to manage h.264 you can run grid) is true, directly from nVidia or from someone that extract the APK, we'll easily have the client.
On the server side everything is needed is a GeForce GPU (at least GTX650) and the GeForce Experience Program, so no particular gimmicks.

Seeing Splashtop THD running smoothly on N7 is enough to state that the hardware is powerful enough to handle it (as long as we're speaking on internal screen (so 720p) and i'd say up to 1080p (even if Splashtop doesn't support on its THD version). Probably 4K screens and concurrent miracast streaming to both the devices will be an exclusive for the power of T4 (and with a very good wireless repeater i'd say), but without a video output option on the N7 is not our scenario at all

PVL_93_RU · Jan 9, 2013

I don't see much point of using 4K HDTV's with a tablet to run a gaming streaming program. It's much easier to just play on a console or connect your gaming PC to a HDTV and use it as a monitor to utilize the power potential and play graphics-heavy things like Crysis in the resolution it was meant to be played

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
I don't see much point of using 4K HDTV's with a tablet to run a gaming streaming program. It's much easier to just play on a console or connect your gaming PC to a HDTV and use it as a monitor to utilize the power potential and play graphics-heavy things like Crysis in the resolution it was meant to be played

I completely agree. Furthermore, talking about raw numbers, accordingly to this a streaming of an H.264 720p video (in high quality)@ 30fps, takes about 6Mbit/s that is currently a bandwidth available even on a good G router (and on several mobile providers). Considering the target of 60 fps we will need a surely at least a N router to avoid hiccups during the stream. However, rising the resolution to 4k the bandwidth needed for 60fps is about 70mbit/s that is simply insane to reach completely wireless if not sitting next to the PC and the router (as always seen in all the presentations) or having a real powerful dual band router...So to me the streaming makes sense only on portable devices up to 1080p. Above there are surely other solutions

PVL_93_RU · Jan 9, 2013

SimoxTav said:
I completely agree. Furthermore, talking about raw numbers, accordingly to this a streaming of an H.264 720p video (in high quality)@ 30fps, takes about 6Mbit/s that is currently a bandwidth available even on a good G router (and on several mobile providers). Considering the target of 60 fps we will need a surely at least a N router to avoid hiccups during the stream. However, rising the resolution to 4k the bandwidth needed for 60fps is about 70mbit/s that is simply insane to reach completely wireless if not sitting next to the PC and the router (as always seen in all the presentations) or having a real powerful dual band router...So to me the streaming makes sense only on portable devices up to 1080p. Above there are surely other solutions

So, as I understand, to use Grid you must not only have a more or less fast Wi-Fi connection (or mobile network if it allows it), but also have a device powerful enough to decode the picture being streamed from the server/your PC, right?

I've seen a couple of vids with the above-mentioned Splashtop GamePad THD - and it runs with noticeably less framerate than it does on the PC that the app was demonstated with

It's kinda strange though, because unlike Grid and Splashtop - the OnLive required to have only a fast enough internet connection which bandwith would allow to process the stream from the server, and the technology didn't require you to have a powerful hardware, meaning that you could even run things like Battlefiled 3 with maximum quality on a 5 year old PC

So why did NVidia decie to go the other way around?

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
So, as I understand, to use Grid you must not only have a more or less fast Wi-Fi connection (or mobile network if it allows it), but also have a device powerful enough to decode the picture being streamed from the server/your PC, right?

I've seen a couple of vids with the above-mentioned Splashtop GamePad THD - and it runs with noticeably less framerate than it does on the PC that the app was demonstated with

It's kinda strange though, because unlike Grid and Splashtop - the OnLive required to have only a fast enough internet connection which bandwith would allow to process the stream from the server, and the technology didn't require you to have a powerful hardware, meaning that you could even run things like Battlefiled 3 with maximum quality on a 5 year old PC

So why did NVidia decie to go the other way around?

More or less every device today is able to manage (encode/decode) a H.264 stream so basically the "requirements" for the client device are not so strict (I'd say similar to OnLive indeed. Consider that having a compressed stream means less bandwidth used, on the other hand a decent CPU is needed to handle the task). The main difference is about that the THD version is specifically optimized to use one core of Tegra 3 just for the decoding process. Talking about the framerate of splashtop, I'll measure it somehow (I need the GF reflex but i'll try with a phone

), however I never noticed so much difference between the 2 devices (assuming that I have an intel core-i5 + GTX 670 and a DGND3700).

To be completely honest, however, I didn't even noticed a difference between the THD version and the "Splashtop 2 version on the nexus 7 (Splashtop 2 is free so is worth a try and compatible with a wide range of devices).

May I ask you to link the video you watched to see if the different framerate could be relevant to some particular environment?

PVL_93_RU · Jan 9, 2013

SimoxTav said:
May I ask you to link the video you watched to see if the different framerate could be relevant to some particular environment?

I watched this video, the official one from Splashtop YouTube channel:

You can easily notice that even streaming a movie lacks the framerate compared to the original shown on the PC

SimoxTav · Jan 9, 2013

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
I watched this video, the official one from Splashtop YouTube channel:

...cut...

You can easily notice that even streaming a movie lacks the framerate compared to the original shown on the PC

Yeah I'd say the difference is crystal clear. Probably for Grid/Project Shield they improved their codec to grant a smoother output (nVidia Italy said something related to it on Facebook (Link)

Quanto mostrato è una evoluzione di questa tecnologia, ancora a livello prototipale, quindi purtroppo non siamo in grado di risponderti con precisione, non essendo neppure noi a conoscenza dei dettagli

Translated:

As shown is an evolution of this technology (Note: Splashtop), still at prototype level, so unfortunately we are unable to answer precisely, since neither are we aware of the details

I recorded on the fly a video for BF3, both server and client are connected via wifi (this isn't the optimal scenario but due the distance I can't move the desktop around the house). Talking about numbers there are no excuses and even on side by side comparison the difference is noticeable; however taken each one singly, the experience is IMHO enjoyable). Tomorrow I'll try with Splashtop 2 the same test (that one comes from a different developing branch, more recent than THD so maybe there will be improvements)

Video

FYI:
I used the render.drawfps call on BF3 (embedded in the engine) and FPS Meter on Android so was easy to see their framerates side by side. On PC the game is configured on Ultra with Vsync so no more than 60fps.

PVL_93_RU · Jan 9, 2013

Does the in-game graphics setting have an influence on the framerate of the streamed picture?

SimoxTav · Jan 10, 2013

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
Does the in-game graphics setting have an influence on the framerate of the streamed picture?

For this i quote what Eurogamer stated during the faceoff between OnLive and Gaikai (that should be based on Grid servers) (Source)

Improved visual quality server-side also has ramifications for video compression. Hard edges with no anti-aliasing will be harder to encode than a richer, smoother picture derived from the game running on higher graphics settings - after all, these video compressors were designed with real life footage in mind, not raw game visuals.

So better compression means lower bandwidth, however the framerate of both the stream and the server play a big role.

Basically, fewer unique frames (60FPS) means less work for the compressor to deal with when encoding the video stream. From another perspective, dropping down to 30FPS also provides double the amount of bandwidth for image quality and thus delivers overall clarity closer to the experience of gaming on local hardware.

PVL_93_RU · Jan 10, 2013

IMO 30FPS is mostly enough, though for fast paced racing and fighting games 60FPS is a must. Especially for fightings.

I believe that if we use a game with less graphics-heavy vicuals - then the stream should be pretty smooth, right?

Like, let's say, games like Diablo II, StarCraft, WarCraft III and Trackmania/Trackmania: Sunrise should work pretty nice

SimoxTav · Jan 10, 2013

Fatal1ty_18_RUS said:
IMO 30FPS is mostly enough, though for fast paced racing and fighting games 60FPS is a must. Especially for fightings.

I believe that if we use a game with less graphics-heavy vicuals - then the stream should be pretty smooth, right?

Like, let's say, games like Diablo II, StarCraft, WarCraft III and Trackmania/Trackmania: Sunrise should work pretty nice

Yeah, but more than graphics visuals details, their fast pace gameplay is the worst for this kind of technology.

However it seems that with grid the performance are clearly better

ÜBER™ · Jan 10, 2013

Did they specify if this was going to be a monthly subscription type deal or a pay for the games and what not like onlive?

PVL_93_RU · Jan 10, 2013

ÜBER™ said:
Did they specify if this was going to be a monthly subscription type deal or a pay for the games and what not like onlive?

I don't think that NVidia can afford to run a service like this (imagine how much resources they need to provide this streaming, especially in a perfect state)
Look at what happened to OnLive

So probably it's gonna be, like, 10-15$ a month or so, not too much (like if you'd rent a game from a shop like GameStop or such) and multiplied by the number of NVidia-powered devices (including phones, tablets and computers/notebooks/etc) - it's gonna bring some $$$ for the company

SimoxTav · Jan 10, 2013

ÜBER™ said:
Did they specify if this was going to be a monthly subscription type deal or a pay for the games and what not like onlive?

Their GRID architecture for cloud will be sold to third parties (Playcast, Ubitus, etc) and nVidia will not provide its own service directly. However talking on the LAN side of the application, it should be promoted and supported directly by nVidia (even if for now is shown as a "Shield only" feature) but I expect to see it at least on "all" Tegra devices (due the fact that if the service can work on the cloud, make it working on LAN is surely easier.

nVidia Grid on Nexus 7

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