Are we EOL?

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imnuts

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Samsung was one of the manufacturers who agreed to the alliance/coalition to keep their devices updated for 18 months after release, which is a far cry from your idea of their "marketing decisions". If what you suggest is true, then they pulled quite the "switch-a-roo" on us as consumers, and we have every right to be mad. That would mean we've gone from Samsung making decisions that we don't agree with to downright being lied to.

That said, the alliance was probably a pipedream, and I've come to terms with that. However, the fact that they would not release code that would allow our kickass enthusiast developers to port it themselves is kind of insulting if they're not going to go through the trouble of developing it themselves.

There was never a given time frame when the 18 month update window was to start, what devices would fall under the agreement, and what was required for updates. For all we know, it didn't start until the latest Nexus was released.

And telling Samsung to release the code that we need to get AOSP functioning would be like going to MS and telling them to release the code for WP7 so you can port it/customize it. It is proprietary, and just because Google open-sourced Android doesn't mean that everyone else has to as well. The code is released under a license that doesn't require modifications to be published.
 

KarateExplosion6

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Jun 21, 2010
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Well, interesting stuff over at Verizon. As you may know, the deal VZW was running for people to get Revolutions and Charges FREE with a new 2-year contract is now over. So, I checked VZW's web site...

The Rezound had pricing cut to $49 and the Revolution is only being carrier as Certified Pre-Owned. The Charge is completely sold out... but is still listed at $99! That's the same price as the Stratosphere. The website claims VZW will be able to ship more devices by 4/9.

What do you guys think? Is VZWs website just taking order, expecting to get leftover Charge inventory from all of their retail locations by 4/9? Has anyone stopped into a retail location--do they have the Charge still?

Are we EOL?
 

JihadSquad

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Oct 5, 2011
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Well, interesting stuff over at Verizon. As you may know, the deal VZW was running for people to get Revolutions and Charges FREE with a new 2-year contract is now over. So, I checked VZW's web site...

The Rezound had pricing cut to $49 and the Revolution is only being carrier as Certified Pre-Owned. The Charge is completely sold out... but is still listed at $99! That's the same price as the Stratosphere. The website claims VZW will be able to ship more devices by 4/9.

What do you guys think? Is VZWs website just taking order, expecting to get leftover Charge inventory from all of their retail locations by 4/9? Has anyone stopped into a retail location--do they have the Charge still?

Are we EOL?

I went to a VZW authorized retailer (have yet to find any corporate stores in Madison near the university) a couple weeks ago and they still had accessories for the Charge. They had very few actual phones there for display, and the only working one was the LG spectrum. All the other ones were plastic mock-ups, including the Razr, Rezound, Nexus, and surprisingly the Droid x2
 

BleedsOrangeandBlue

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Jul 10, 2011
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There was never a given time frame when the 18 month update window was to start, what devices would fall under the agreement, and what was required for updates. For all we know, it didn't start until the latest Nexus was released.

And telling Samsung to release the code that we need to get AOSP functioning would be like going to MS and telling them to release the code for WP7 so you can port it/customize it. It is proprietary, and just because Google open-sourced Android doesn't mean that everyone else has to as well. The code is released under a license that doesn't require modifications to be published.

I never said that they were required or obligated to do anything, just that I'm of the opinion that they should. I think your first paragraph is a bit of a cop out... if they're of the opinion that its right to keep their devices updated for 18 months, its beyond BS for that to start only with new devices. Sure, the agreement may not apply, but they've agreed to the principle behind it as well.

Again, I'm not under the delusion that they have to do anything, but I do believe that they should. They've really just got three options here:

-Update us to ICS
-Release the code required for talented gents like you to continue to do their job for them
-Not do anything, pissing off and ultimately losing customers

If they don't release it, I don't really care, I'll move on when my time comes. I just kind of took offense to the moronic reasoning displayed by the guy I was arguing with that Samsung shouldn't release anything because we're mean and told them that they suck. The conversation spiraled on from there.
 

imnuts

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I never said that they were required or obligated to do anything, just that I'm of the opinion that they should. I think your first paragraph is a bit of a cop out... if they're of the opinion that its right to keep their devices updated for 18 months, its beyond BS for that to start only with new devices. Sure, the agreement may not apply, but they've agreed to the principle behind it as well.

I could see it applying to new devices only. When VZW and Samsung were negotiating the terms of the device deal, it may not have been scheduled to receive another update, and since the deal was agreed upon before the 18 month update agreement came out, Samsung and VZW may not have budgeted to support another OS upgrade. The cost would be development, testing, and technical support to the end user. While you are right, they should still abide by it, there is nothing saying they won't agree to update the Charge to ICS, nor is there anything saying they won't. Either way, they are never going to release the proprietary code that they have as it is likely shared among several current, as well as future devices.
 

shrike1978

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Jun 28, 2011
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Also, I'm pretty sure some of the code is not even fully owned by them and they couldn't release it even if they wanted to. I'm betting at least parts of the RIL code were supplied by VIA Telecom.
 

ilovesoad

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May 22, 2011
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I never said that they were required or obligated to do anything, just that I'm of the opinion that they should. I think your first paragraph is a bit of a cop out... if they're of the opinion that its right to keep their devices updated for 18 months, its beyond BS for that to start only with new devices. Sure, the agreement may not apply, but they've agreed to the principle behind it as well.

Again, I'm not under the delusion that they have to do anything, but I do believe that they should. They've really just got three options here:

-Update us to ICS
-Release the code required for talented gents like you to continue to do their job for them
-Not do anything, pissing off and ultimately losing customers

If they don't release it, I don't really care, I'll move on when my time comes. I just kind of took offense to the moronic reasoning displayed by the guy I was arguing with that Samsung shouldn't release anything because we're mean and told them that they suck. The conversation spiraled on from there.

You do realize that the pissed off users account for a few percent. Maybe 5. The overwhelming majority won't care so long as their device works, and wouldn't know what ICS even is. Think about it. Verizon knows their target market.

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BleedsOrangeandBlue

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Jul 10, 2011
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I could see it applying to new devices only. When VZW and Samsung were negotiating the terms of the device deal, it may not have been scheduled to receive another update, and since the deal was agreed upon before the 18 month update agreement came out, Samsung and VZW may not have budgeted to support another OS upgrade. The cost would be development, testing, and technical support to the end user. While you are right, they should still abide by it, there is nothing saying they won't agree to update the Charge to ICS, nor is there anything saying they won't. Either way, they are never going to release the proprietary code that they have as it is likely shared among several current, as well as future devices.

Again, I realize that the binding part of the agreement (if there is any) will only apply to new phones, but you have to admit that its ridiculous for them to proclaim "we think its important that we keep our phones updated, but its only important for the ones we make after today". The terms of the agreement isn't the important part, its the principle of the agreement. If they truly believed that keeping devices current was best for that length of time, then it should apply to all their devices within that frame. Since they're not taking that stance, the agreement reeks of being nothing more than a marketing ploy. Obviously spending more money than they have to (by developing software) isn't in their best financial interests, so it makes business sense for them to only apply it where the agreement mandates (ie: future devices). However, the agreement was about doing something in the consumers' best interests, so their strategy of only following it to the letter (vice the spirit) sends a message loud and clear to me. Can you guess what that message is?

The fact that they've not committed either way isn't necessarily reassuring... it just means they're being intentionally non-committal. Again, if they think devices should stay current for a year and a half, it should already be announced that we're getting it at some point, regardless of whether there is an ETA on it.

All that said, if tossing us aside is in their best business interests, I totally get that. It sucks for us, and it means they won't be getting my money anymore. But that's also a business decision. It goes both ways, and I'm ok with that.

You do realize that the pissed off users account for a few percent. Maybe 5. The overwhelming majority won't care so long as their device works, and wouldn't know what ICS even is. Think about it. Verizon knows their target market.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk

I'm sure that's true, however Samsung obviously feels that keeping devices updated is important (because they agreed to the 18 month alliance thing) and they've shown they think the aftermarket development community is important (by reaching out to the CM team to make sure it would be available for the SGS2). You can say that there is no reason for them to care, but they've indicated, through their past actions, that they do to some degree. They're just maybe not the best at seeing it through.

And the cell phone industry accounted for 15 billion dollars in the final quarter of 2011. 5% of that is $750 million dollars. That's $3 billion a year that you're (in your hypothetical 5%) not even trying to court. Chump change for a company of this magnitude? Maybe... but that's a lot of market share to leave untapped when they could spend a little bit to try to reach out to it.
 
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charlie_c

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Aug 11, 2011
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Again, I realize that the binding part of the agreement (if there is any)...

There isn't any. It's voluntary and nothing more than a goal. No enforcement, no guarantee, just a stated goal. Also, you have to remember that our phone was in development well before this goal was ever publicly stated. The things that would help with meeting this 18-month goal of support (like more RAM, more space for system files, etc) need to be known and incorporated during the development phase. There's no reason to think this was the case.

A new car that is introduced at the same time as new federal safety regulations will not be held to those standards, because the car has already been created. The regulations are for governing future development, not things that already exist.

My assumption is that manufacturers, going forward from that agreement, would try and make sure their hardware was sufficient to support at least 18 months of software upgrades and that their UIs were internally consistent enough to make the upgrades easier and quicker to deploy.

I of course hope we get ICS from somewhere, but it's a long, long stretch to try and hold them to that 18 month goal for a phone that was launched before that was ever announced.
 

BleedsOrangeandBlue

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There isn't any. It's voluntary and nothing more than a goal. No enforcement, no guarantee, just a stated goal. Also, you have to remember that our phone was in development well before this goal was ever publicly stated. The things that would help with meeting this 18-month goal of support (like more RAM, more space for system files, etc) need to be known and incorporated during the development phase. There's no reason to think this was the case.

A new car that is introduced at the same time as new federal safety regulations will not be held to those standards, because the car has already been created. The regulations are for governing future development, not things that already exist.

My assumption is that manufacturers, going forward from that agreement, would try and make sure their hardware was sufficient to support at least 18 months of software upgrades and that their UIs were internally consistent enough to make the upgrades easier and quicker to deploy.

Let's take your example and run with it.

Why do you suppose that car manufacturers aren't held to those safety regulations? I'd argue that its safe to say its because they can't adhere to a regulation that doesn't exist yet, right?

If that's true, and the phone manufacturers before were only capable of creating devices that have "relevant" hardware 6 months from production, why are we to believe that they're now capable of seeing what software demands are going to be over a year out? How can they hold themselves to a standard that doesn't yet exist?

To ask another way, look at one of your own sentences;

"(like more RAM, more space for system files, etc) need to be known and incorporated during the development phase"

Short of a crystal ball, how will they know these things that "need to be known during the development phase" if the software hasn't been developed yet?

Conversely, do you think that they were limiting the hardware they were putting in phones to only minimally meet the software demands of their current OS? I don't, as the progression we've seen in hardware over the lifespan of gingerbread has increased pretty significantly, which would lead one to believe that hardware development (and not simply meeting minimal software requirements) is what is driving what is actually making it into the devices.

By your framework, they're either incapable of making a phone relevant for more than six months or they've been intentionally not doing it. I don't see (based on technological progression) how anyone could argue the latter, which would leave only the former. If the former is true, why would they be able to TRIPLE that time frame now? You think they weren't "trying really, really hard" before? Or do you think they'll be able to predict the future and know what the software reqs for the next major iteration of Android will be and are focusing their development on that?

Does that mean that the 18 month thing is just a sham and isn't even a realistic goal to be set?

How should I feel about the Thunderbolt getting ICS? It was released even earlier than the Charge. Is that an indictment against Samsung? I'm genuinely asking...not trying to be combative.


I of course hope we get ICS from somewhere, but it's a long, long stretch to try and hold them to that 18 month goal for a phone that was launched before that was ever announced.

Again, I'm not trying to "hold" them to the agreement. If you quoted anything more than the first half of the first sentence of that entire paragraph, then it would be clear that "holding them to it" is exactly NOT what I'm trying to suggest.
 

charlie_c

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Aug 11, 2011
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Let's take your example and run with it.

Why do you suppose that car manufacturers aren't held to those safety regulations? I'd argue that its safe to say its because they can't adhere to a regulation that doesn't exist yet, right?

If that's true, and the phone manufacturers before were only capable of creating devices that have "relevant" hardware 6 months from production, why are we to believe that they're now capable of seeing what software demands are going to be over a year out? How can they hold themselves to a standard that doesn't yet exist?

To ask another way, look at one of your own sentences;

"(like more RAM, more space for system files, etc) need to be known and incorporated during the development phase"

Short of a crystal ball, how will they know these things that "need to be known during the development phase" if the software hasn't been developed yet?

I don't know why you're over complicating this argument. It's not difficult to slightly over engineer something to increase the useful life of it. If there is an expectation that you need to future proof something more than you were previously, all you need to do is improve the common bottleneck areas that I mentioned previously (RAM, system storage space).

Going back to the car analogy, it's not hard for an auto manufacturer to design a car that exceeds current CAFE standards with the expectation that future CAFE standards will be more demanding (or increase crash protection/number of airbags with the expectation that crash protection regulations will become more stringent).

Obviously there is no "crystal ball", so they may not be able to foresee regulation changes requiring a higher hood line to improve pedestrian impact safety, but the general idea is pretty simple. Look at requirements a few years ago. Look at requirements now. Plot a linear or exponential line if you want and you can predict roughly where they'll be in a few years from now. Phone manufacturers have a few smart employees, I'm sure they can figure it out.

Conversely, do you think that they were limiting the hardware they were putting in phones to only minimally meet the software demands of their current OS? I don't, as the progression we've seen in hardware over the lifespan of gingerbread has increased pretty significantly, which would lead one to believe that hardware development (and not simply meeting minimal software requirements) is what is driving what is actually making it into the devices.

By your framework, they're either incapable of making a phone relevant for more than six months or they've been intentionally not doing it. I don't see (based on technological progression) how anyone could argue the latter, which would leave only the former. If the former is true, why would they be able to TRIPLE that time frame now? You think they weren't "trying really, really hard" before? Or do you think they'll be able to predict the future and know what the software reqs for the next major iteration of Android will be and are focusing their development on that?

Does that mean that the 18 month thing is just a sham and isn't even a realistic goal to be set?

How should I feel about the Thunderbolt getting ICS? It was released even earlier than the Charge. Is that an indictment against Samsung? I'm genuinely asking...not trying to be combative.

Again, you're making this very difficult and convoluted, but it's pretty simple. All it means, quite simply, is that there is now a target. Before, there was no target. As far as I know, before, they could release a phone, and as long as the hardware was basically sufficient for the launch OS, what was the problem? What was the expectation that had been set for the length of product support cycle? What were the guidelines? If there were no expectations and no guidelines, then manufacturers could release devices with whatever hardware they wanted. It was driven by component cost and marketing.

The major difference that should be obvious now is that there are guidelines and expectations that they can use to base their decisions on that did not exist before.

As far as the TB, you can think what you want. They made better decisions in some areas regarding components specs and design maybe, and I'm sure they work internally very differently than Samsung. Maybe it is a indictment against Samsung, but I'd say it's more indicative of how flawed and inconsistent the Android support cycle has been for the different devices.
 

luis86dr

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May 27, 2009
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I just saw that the Aviator is launching with 2.3.6. Probably Fp1.

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imnuts

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Lets say you buy a new computer, knowing that there is going to be an OS update for it in 2 months. Is the OEM that made your computer responsible for updating you to the latest OS? Or even updating any software and drivers to be compatible with it? Why should a smartphone be any different? Cost factor? You think it's free for the OEMs to produce the updates and then support them? If you think it's so easy, why don't you do it yourself? Android is opensource, and a lot of the work is already done, so why don't you get the phone updated for all of us?
 

luis86dr

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May 27, 2009
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WTF is up with aviator now? I live in one of the US Cellular lte areas and they have a CDMA only galaxy s II or something. Now they are launching LTE and downgrading to this phone?

Yeah, seems to be that way. I mean this isn't a horrible device but they could have picked better imo.

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JihadSquad

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Oct 5, 2011
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Yeah, seems to be that way. I mean this isn't a horrible device but they could have picked better imo.

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Follow me on Twitter @lmrtech
True but I guess that there is no current Galaxy S II CDMA/LTE so they would have to build an entirely new one instead of rebranding an existing phone like they currently do. Still something like galaxy nexus would have been nice.
 

jager420

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2010
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The fact that they've not committed either way isn't necessarily reassuring... it just means they're being intentionally non-committal. Again, if they think devices should stay current for a year and a half, it should already be announced that we're getting it at some point, regardless of whether there is an ETA on it.

I agree with what your saying but you cant blame it all on Samsung. I bet you Samsung can give a ICS build with TouchWiz on it. BUT Verizon says "dont forget to add all this BS". I think if Verizon didn't REQUIRE all that BS to be put in we would get updates a lot quicker. Dont blame just Samsung. Verizon should be blamed to. Again tho you cant expect to get ICS on 512mb ram w/ touchwiz and verizon bloat. Its just not gonna happen. Go donate to JT if you want some ICS..Money always talks ;)
FYI: They did update us to Gingerbread and gave us another update (fp1). Maybe didn't update to ICS but they didn't totally forget us.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

Lets say you buy a new computer, knowing that there is going to be an OS update for it in 2 months. Is the OEM that made your computer responsible for updating you to the latest OS? Or even updating any software and drivers to be compatible with it?

Good way of putting that.. agreed:D
 

buhohitr

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2011
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I agree with what your saying but you cant blame it all on Samsung. I bet you Samsung can give a ICS build with TouchWiz on it. BUT Verizon says "dont forget to add all this BS". I think if Verizon didn't REQUIRE all that BS to be put in we would get updates a lot quicker. Dont blame just Samsung. Verizon should be blamed to. Again tho you cant expect to get ICS on 512mb ram w/ touchwiz and verizon bloat. Its just not gonna happen. Go donate to JT if you want some ICS..Money always talks ;)
FYI: They did update us to Gingerbread and gave us another update (fp1). Maybe didn't update to ICS but they didn't totally forget us.

That is what I tried to tell this guy from the beginning. Samsung coders are not sucks. Since they're working under Samsung, there are rules/regulation/compliance and specifications that they must follow. They are not free coders like us (do what ever we please). The point I tried to make is Samsung coders are as smart and they do know their hardware better than anyone here, but their abilities are limited by the Corporation/business BS. I just disagreed with calling someone suck and know nothing about the person.
 

DirgeExtinction

Senior Member
Sep 24, 2010
2,055
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I agree with what your saying but you cant blame it all on Samsung. I bet you Samsung can give a ICS build with TouchWiz on it. BUT Verizon says "dont forget to add all this BS". I think if Verizon didn't REQUIRE all that BS to be put in we would get updates a lot quicker. Dont blame just Samsung. Verizon should be blamed to. Again tho you cant expect to get ICS on 512mb ram w/ touchwiz and verizon bloat. Its just not gonna happen. Go donate to JT if you want some ICS..Money always talks ;)
FYI: They did update us to Gingerbread and gave us another update (fp1). Maybe didn't update to ICS but they didn't totally forget us.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------



Good way of putting that.. agreed:D

Remember that not even the international carrier unlocked Galaxy S is getting ICS. I'm guessing ICS + TW is too much for it.

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  • 3
    OK just put that into layman's terms for me..
    Which one is better for watching porn....

    SENT FROM THE DOG POUND
    2
    Okay, wow, major misinformation.

    The Rezound has a 45nm dual-core Qualcomm Snapdragon S3 processor (MSM8660).

    The US-variant Galaxy S III has a 28nm dual-core Snapdragon S4 (MSM8960), a chip which is generally considered as good as, if not better, than the quad-core Tegra 3 in general usage. The S4's GPU also has double the clock speed of the S3's.

    What that difference actually means is this: the 8960 performs twice as well as the 8660. Take a look at this, and note where the Rezound is:
    s4kraitbench3.jpg


    As far as the Exynos 4 vs the S4... even that's a bit of a performance tossup. The S4 comes on top in some benchmarks, while the Exynos comes on top in others. Neither is indisputably a better processor, though the Exynos chipset does have a better GPU.
    2
    @imnuts: I've maintained that Samsung isn't responsible or obligated to do anything. Pretty sure I've said that (and reemphasized it) in three separate posts now and I am totally unsure as to why you keep trying to hammer on something that I haven't said. My stance is that it would be a good business decision for them to do so because their competition is doing a better job of it than they are. Regardless of what is "required", I'm going to go somewhere that gives me the most bang for my buck, a pretty fundamental tenet of being a consumer known as "value". If it was standard across the industry that nothing ever got updated, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. But they do, so forgive me if I'm not apologetic towards a company that is giving me less value than their competition. They don't have to, you're right. But I don't have to be happy about it, nor do I have to continue using their goods.

    And the "if its so easy go do it yourself" line is so completely juvenile, its laughable. You're better than that, man, come on. This discussion is centered around the business practices of Samsung (and every other phone company, really). Whether or not this specific phone gets this specific update is but a drop in the bucket of the overall premise of the argument. Laughable.

    Go out and ask the average consumer what the latest version of Android is, and I'd be willing to bet that most of them couldn't tell you. To that same effect, ask someone what version their current phone is running, and they also couldn't tell you that. The average consumer doesn't care what version of Android their phone has, just so long as it works.

    The enthusiast market makes up probably 1% of the overall market, if it's even that large of a share. People here that phones get updates, but they have no idea what they are being updated to, what they are coming from, or what is different. Samsung is still releasing updates, we're up to the 4th update on the Charge now. A consumer will see that as nothing wrong, bugs are getting fixed and it is being updated, even if it isn't the latest available version. The average consumer will go with whatever is advertised more because they are dumb. Samsung won't see any fewer sales because of not updating to ICS, and if they do, it could just be seen as a slight variance.

    Would it be great if every manufacturer kept everything updated all the time? Sure, but how do you justify updating a year old device when you can release a brand new phone that has the updated software and make more in sales? How can you further try to justify the update when the average consumer isn't going to notice anyway?
    1
    Don't listen to reps. Consider them to be like car salesman. They'll say what they have to in order to make the sale.

    Sent from my SCH-I510 using XDA
    1
    If all you care about is how specs look on paper, okay, sure, it's a disappointment.

    If what you care about is how the device actually performs, then it's not a disappointment and is in some ways actually a good thing. 2GB of memory absolutely will make a noticeable difference, especially as apps get bigger and more memory-intensive, which is why a good number of people think the S4 variant is actually better than the original.

    http://pocketnow.com/2012/05/31/which-galaxy-s-3-is-better-quad-core-or-2gb-ram/