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My dealings with HTC

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By simobile, Member on 12th October 2010, 06:44 AM
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Just posted this on the T-mobs forums and some of this is already in the "lets get the kernel thread" but I think we should make a single source for what information HTC is giving us in case this does proceed to legal action, etc. Had to futz a little with the hyperlinks since I'm a new poster to XDA but am not a new user of this blissful place. So here it is...



I call BS on the whole thing.



I've been trying to get HTC to release the source code and also bringing up the shenanigans that they pulled on us all with this root block and internal memory bait and switch crap. Here is my dealings with HTC so far. Love the blame game they switch at the end of our discussion. I know this is a lot to read but trust me that this back and forth is quite entertaining.



MY 1ST HTC MESSAGE



To whom it may pertain to... Just purchased a HTC T-mobile G2 aka HTC Vision and have been a avid HTC supporter for quite sometime. Ever since I owned my first HTC device the codenamed blueangel. The fact that HTC would work with the developer community pulled me toward your devices. I can't believe you guys (HTC) would lock down the successor to the device that helped you start the "open" revolution. I know it was most probably T-mobile that made you do it but that is besides the point. Especially since they have blamed you in the press. You have spit it the face of the developer community and shame on you and T-mobile. This protection will be broken I have no doubt of that but the fact that HTC put it there at all is what is in question. Please don't make this a race of protection...hack...protection...hack. OPEN means we should work together not against each other. So please do the right thing and help us either root these devices or give us the kernel source to help us along. Or even better do both of the above and show you respect the dev community like we all thought you did. Below I have included the first post of a stream that will become a torrent against HTC from the XDA devs. Thanks for your cooperation.



MY 1ST HTC REPLY



We cannot comment on whether or not HTC has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. Rooting the phone may open the phone up to virus attacks and other un-secure activities, as well as introduce intended functionality, and as such is very difficult for us to support. We cannot comment on whether or not HTC, Google, or T-Mobile has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. All three companies work very closely to bring you the best experience on the phone possible. I do understand how important it is to be able to use your device to the best of its capabilities. We are not withholding the kernel; we are currently working through the legal channels that we must go through to make the kernel available to you. Each product is individually under review. When the kernel is available, you will be able to find it on developer.htc.com. I apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced, and thank you for your patience in this matter.



MY 2ND HTC MESSAGE



I understand the position of HTC to not comment on the situation at hand even though it has already been outed in the press by T-mobile that HTC did indeed lock the phone. So either you are saying that the T-mobile press release was a hoax and HTC did nothing with write protection or HTC just want's the problem to go away. As far as not wanting us to root because of unsafe activities.... Well I don't even know where to start with that comment. We are all big boys and girls and can handle the effect of our actions. It's like saying Toyota installed a system in my car that will only let a certified technician open the hood because I may insert washer fluid into the engine instead of oil. Most companies would love it if you would void your warranty. Does it not lead to less operating cost for HTC in the long run to not support it's products because the warranties are void? You don't want me to void my warranty then do as the GPS companies do and make a disclaimer that I have to read and agree to before I go any further. Also on the subject of voiding warranties did HTC not say that G2 had 4gb's of internal storage? Yet only 1.2gb are available for use because of this lock? Back to the car analogies. If Ford says your car has 200 horse power in the brochure and (AFTER!!!!) you buy it you learn that only 50 horse power is unlocked you might be a little angry. No? I understand the position of all big companies is to play dumb until something either is forgotten or legal channels make them play smart but I do have to say that I did not expect this out of HTC. This post isn't directed at you Sarah but merely my G2 and thousands of others crippled devices. If you could pass this and my prior message to someone higher up that might at least read it and think it over it would be greatly appreciated.



MY 2ND HTC REPLY



Thank you for contacting HTC Technical Assistance Center. I do understand your desire to fully explore the G2’s potential. Let me try and address your concerns one by one. In regards to your request for source code, HTC will typically publish on developer.htc the Kernel open source code for recently released devices. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. As for your concerns about the internal memory space, the space listed on the box and in advertisements is the total storage capacity of the phone, and in fact does exist in the phone. The majority of the space is being used to make sure your phone is running at optimal performance levels. If you require more space, you can use the provided SD Card to add media and other files. Our SD card reader can support up to 16gb of extended storage. Try and look at it along the lines of your computer. Just because on a floppy disk you had 1.44 mb of space didn’t ever mean you could use all that. There was always an amount of space you could never use. This is true for any computer type related device with storage. Big or small there’s always an amount of “floating” space needed. At this point we will be happy to document your concern with the current release state of the phone. Your concerns are being forwarded to the proper departments. Beyond the information provided, however, we would have nothing additional to release



MY 3RD HTC MESSAGE



Ummm. The reply on the 1.44mb floppy is just crazy out of bounds. Yes I understand that if I install a 1tb drive on my computer some 100mb's or so may be floating but not 500 gigs of my drive!!! You guys commandeered over HALF of the internal storage of the G2. That's just crazy. Also on the (right?) that you have to release the source code in 90-120 days.... Who made up that number? Certainly not the GPL you are supposed to adhere to. An excerpt from freedom-to-tinker talking about the G2 source code. "Perhaps HTC (and T-Mobile, distributor of the phone) should review the actual contents of the GNU Public License (v2), which stipulate the legal requirements for modifying and redistributing Linux. They state that you may only distribute derivative code if you accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code." Notably, there is no mention of a "grace period" or the like. The importance of redistributing source code in a timely fashion goes beyond enabling phone rooting. It is the foundation of the "copyleft" regime of software licensing that has led to the flourishing of the open source software ecosystem. If every useful modification required waiting 90 to 120 days to be built upon, it would have taken eons to get to where we are today. It's one thing for a company to choose to pursue the closed-source model and to start from scratch, but it's another thing for it to profit from the goodwill of the open source community while imposing arbitrary and illegal restrictions on the code." Please release the code. =)



MY 3RD HTC REPLY



I understand how this can be frustrating for you. To start, we are aware of a situation where the phone is not properly reflecting the correct amount of storage available on the device and we are working with T-Mobile to figure out why this is happening and how to resolve it. I appreciate your patience with it. Next, we provide a timeframe of 90-120 days for the release of the source code as a courtesy for our customer. Unfortunately, HTC Technical Support has no control over what is or is not published on our website and we can only forward the requests to our software developement team and website administrator. The code will be released and when it is you may find it on our developer website. Unfortuantely, my office only handles the technical troubleshooting of our devices stock software and hardware. I do apologize for any inconvenience that you may have experienced through this.



I SMELL WEAK SAUCE ALL OVER THIS!!!!
 
 
12th October 2010, 06:55 AM |#2  
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Are you emailing HTC America about this? Not sure what you think that will accomplish given that none of their low level engineering is done in the US. Also, what's with the rage over root? Did the labelling on your G2 box promise root or bootloader access? I thought we all went into this with the assumption this would be a consumer device and as such was fair game for any sort of anti-cracking protection.
12th October 2010, 07:01 AM |#3  
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It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.

Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch cock but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."
12th October 2010, 07:35 AM |#4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simobile

It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.

Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch cock but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."

lmfaooooooooooo i died reading this man hahahahahaha im in tears man. but that is true tho. what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne " this shows that htc aint that bad but this still sucks, for now. two things lead me to believe that its gonna get rooted permanently:
1: this phone is bound to have updates which obviously isnt the stock that the phone came with. if this was a computer chip or whatever then any phone that comes with it wont recieve any updates because it will return to original way it came in the box right?
2: it will be really pointless releasing the source code if it wouldnt help with the rooting.
im not the best when it comes with source codes and rooting, im just thinking out loud is all. feel free to correct me.
12th October 2010, 07:49 AM |#5  
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Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.
12th October 2010, 05:09 PM |#6  
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Quote:

what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne "

I do agree that I was also shocked that they were actually responding to my messages instead of some generic corportate bs. So I do give them Kudos for that.

Quote:

Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.

This is kinda what I envisioned for this thread. You could share your experiences with HTC or Tmobile if you have already contacted them and If you haven't hopefully it would prompt you too. I would like them to come out in November and say that that 90% of device complaint calls / emails were from the G2. Unrealistic I know but I can dream.
12th October 2010, 09:48 PM |#7  
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... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.

And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.

The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).

I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.
12th October 2010, 10:37 PM |#8  
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I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...

While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.

Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
12th October 2010, 10:43 PM |#9  
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Ditto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorsher

I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...

While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.

Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

Second that!
12th October 2010, 10:50 PM |#10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shograt

... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.

And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.

The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).

I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.

Your right about android being apache, that's why they can have closed source things like sense. HOWEVER the kernel is infact a moddified linux kernel, which in fact falls under GPLv2. According to the GPL violations angency has stated that they are infact in viaolation.


And simobile glad you started this thread, seems people were more concerned with my grammer the the problem at hand here...
12th October 2010, 10:57 PM |#11  
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Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.
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