Windows Phone Future Updates

AceofSpades25 · Nov 22, 2010

naplesbill said:
First of all, reading comprehension is important. What I said is that the limitations you speak of had nothing to with Apple's SUCCESS or FAILURE.

Read in context of the conversation, this comment

If it was such an important feature, then apple market share wouldn't be what it is, while winmo is almost dead.

could be read to imply that the whole reason apple succeeded and WinMo failed was becasue of expandable storage. He may not have meant this, but I chose to take that as his meaning.

Whether or not he meant this, the point I made still stands. Apple's original success had nothing to do expandable storage because back then this issue was eclipsed by the iPhone's many other great features. This is no longer the case, Apple's current slide against Android is in part due to this.

I am happy your mother swaps her sd card, however, that is a non-typical user by any measure

By any measure? Certainly not by anybody's measure that I know of. I have plenty of non-technical friends. Like most smartphone users, they have been using digital cameras/camcorders/mobiles for years already. As a result they all know what to assume when they see MicroSD written on a box. MicroSD = expandable storage. This is not rocket science, it is common knowledge in the 21st century.

You say most people aren't bothered... have you looked at the survey at the bottom of this post? http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-phone-7-traps-your-microsd-card-forever#axzz161QsEKje It looks to me like 80 / 100 users clearly are.

And before you argue that these people do not reflect the opinions of the average smartphone user, these people reflect your average internet user. I am sure that we can both agree that most smartphone users are savy enough to use the internet from time to time.

naplesbill · Nov 22, 2010

AceofSpades25 said:
Read in context of the conversation, this comment

could be read to imply that the whole reason apple succeeded and WinMo failed was becasue of expandable storage. He may not have meant this, but I chose to take that as his meaning.

Whether or not he meant this, the point I made still stands. Apple's original success had nothing to do expandable storage because back then this issue was eclipsed by the iPhone's many other great features. This is no longer the case, Apple's current slide against Android is in part due to this.

By any measure? Certainly not by anybody's measure that I know of. I have plenty of non-technical friends. Like most smartphone users, they have been using digital cameras/camcorders/mobiles for years already. As a result they all know what to assume when they see MicroSD written on a box. MicroSD = expandable storage. This is not rocket science, it is common knowledge in the 21st century.

You say most people aren't bothered... have you looked at the survey at the bottom of this post? http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-phone-7-traps-your-microsd-card-forever#axzz161QsEKje It looks to me like 80 / 100 users clearly are.

And before you argue that these people do not reflect the opinions of the average smartphone user, these people reflect your average internet user. I am sure that we can both agree that most smartphone users are savy enough to use the internet from time to time.

So, you chose to take it out of context then. It is clearly a case of saying that Apple was successful in spite of this limitation, not because of it.

Also, outside of your circle of friends bubble is the rest of the world. I am not sure about the type of work you do, but my job exposes me to people of various backgrounds and education levels. MOST of them have no clue when it comes to anything related to storage, be it removable, mass, etc.

Finally, using a poll at the end of a post from an online article, is hardly indicative of anything but a techie point of view. Who do you think is reading that article anyway?

AceofSpades25 · Nov 22, 2010

You mean to tell me that most of the people you work with have never owned a digital camera?

Even if this was true, most people that choose to buy a £500 smartphone have owned a digital camera before. It is more than reasonable to assume that they know what MicroSD means.

thenext1 · Nov 22, 2010

naplesbill said:
That list is very misleading and incomplete.

Android does not have any built in integration with Twitter without a 3rd party add-on (which is mostly the same with Facebook). Also, there is no visual voicemail for Android on AT&T devices, so that is 3rd party also. Additionally, show me an XBOX Live app for iOS or Android. If it exists, it's news to me.

As for the missing features, multitasking is there (and used by core apps for now), C&P/HTML5/Silverlight/Flash/Universal search have all been confirmed to be added in future updates. Flash will never be added to iOS. The Exchange support is essentially the same across all devices right now, however it is likely to improve vastly on WP7. Visual Voicemail is possible using Google Voice. Internet tethering has already been discovered and enabled on the Focus. There is removable storage (not swappable), albeit with some caveats.

So, as you should be able to see, this comparison chart is so full of half-truths and inaccuracies that it's rendered essentially useless in my book.

I forgot to say, what the other OSs are calling integration is pathetic next to the level of integration offered on WP7 for Facebook.

IIRC, iOS 4 does not have multitasking for 3rd party apps, meaning an app cannot run background code. That's the only inaccuracy I can see in the list.

WP7 is as multitasking as my kitchen blender, for now. Anything that's not available right out of the box and without messing with the phone, doesn't count.

As for integration in Android, the OS is so well done that a well done app integrates perfectly.
Actually, no app, even preinstalled or google apps, get any advantage over 3rd party ones. You can easily remove preinstalled and google apps with a single console command (provided you gain root access to your phone).
You can easily install a homescreen replacement from the Market, in a legit manner without hacking anything, and Android will ask you whether to use it or the default one next time you go to the home screen. And all widgets will work exactly the same.
Do that in WP7 or iOS.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to buy a WP7 phone, I like the styling... but when I see these idiotic holes in functionality I refrain instantly...

nrfitchett4 · Nov 22, 2010

AceofSpades25 said:
It's laughable that you assume apple owes its success to the numerous limitations they have applied to their platform.

Apple WAS successful because they were way ahead of their time. Android are now overtaking them rapidly because Steve Jobs is an idiot.

The fact that WP7 have been trying to emulate Apple and not Android is a cause for serious concern.

I am a Microsoft developer, I love developing Microsoft products. The only reason I post here is because I want WP7 to succeed, I'll be forced to carry one soon, unfortunately the path they have started heading down is pure evil.

that closed system with only 1 device to develop for is the reason apple was able to build its marketplace. Developers did not have to worry about making multiple versions of their application for the marketplace. Have you read the comments from Rovio lately???? They have to make a "lite" version of Angry Birds because android fragmentation means their very popular game doesn't work across all android phones the same.
How many android phones are still waiting for a 2.2 update when 2.3 is about to drop on the nexus one???
Apple does some things well, so does android, but neither is perfect. WP7 is trying to find a balance between the 2.
As a Microsoft developer I would think that you would welcome having only to develop 1 application for mobile instead of 2 or more versions to work with legacy devices. Not to mention, most of the developers are raving about the software abilities of this phone.

nrfitchett4 · Nov 22, 2010

AceofSpades25 said:
You mean to tell me that most of the people you work with have never owned a digital camera?

Even if this was true, most people that choose to buy a £500 smartphone have owned a digital camera before. It is more than reasonable to assume that they know what MicroSD means.

if this were the case then how come I've answered questions on this forum like "how to I get more memory on my phone?"
"How do I move files to my card, my phone says its out of memory?"
Your avg smartphone users these days are not necessarily tech savvy considering t-mobile tends to have sales on them every other week for less than 100 bucks. Pretty sure they are running a huge sale on black friday. This means by sunday, we'll have a lot of people that found this site through google asking some very interesting questions.
So exactly what was microsoft supposed to do?
Release a WinMo 6.6 with no real UI improvements on a platform that hasn't performed that well to date? Would that help them gain back any of the bleeding marketshare from android or apple?
Smartphone users are growing at a very fast rate. Most of them probably don't even know how to move a file on their computer, much less their phone. I should know, I am married to one of those people. She just hands me her hd2 and tells me what she wants on it. Even had to create a shortcut to her movies folder so she could find them...

RustyGrom · Nov 22, 2010

AceofSpades25 said:
You mean to tell me that most of the people you work with have never owned a digital camera?

Even if this was true, most people that choose to buy a £500 smartphone have owned a digital camera before. It is more than reasonable to assume that they know what MicroSD means.

Lots of people that own digital cameras couldn't tell you what a MicroSD card is (my Mom and Dad). They might be able to get the "memory card" out of their camera so they can take it to Wal Mart and get pictures printed but when you start getting into a specific type, they'd be lost. Shoot, I had to explain the difference between MicroUSB and MiniUSB to the chick that worked at the AT&T store the other day. If I didn't know better, I would've walked out of that store with a MiniUSB cable that wouldn't have worked with my Focus.

Microsoft is targeting non-techies with WP7. Plenty of WP7 buyers will not know what a MicroSD card is. Noone here spends $500 on a smartphone. You can get a Focus for free (on contract) right now from Wal-Mart. At that price point a phone that integrates nicely with Facebook could sell like hotcakes with the right sales person.

nrfitchett4 · Nov 22, 2010

RustyGrom said:
Lots of people that own digital cameras couldn't tell you what a MicroSD card is (my Mom and Dad). They might be able to get the "memory card" out of their camera so they can take it to Wal Mart and get pictures printed but when you start getting into a specific type, they'd be lost. Shoot, I had to explain the difference between MicroUSB and MiniUSB to the chick that worked at the AT&T store the other day. If I didn't know better, I would've walked out of that store with a MiniUSB cable that wouldn't have worked with my Focus.

Microsoft is targeting non-techies with WP7. Plenty of WP7 buyers will not know what a MicroSD card is. Noone here spends $500 on a smartphone. You can get a Focus for free (on contract) right now from Wal-Mart. At that price point a phone that integrates nicely with Facebook could sell like hotcakes with the right sales person.

exactly, I spent 150 bucks total on 3 hd2s a few months ago. Even gave 1 to my 9 year old.
Carriers are practically giving away smartphones in an attempt to get everyone locked into 2 year contracts with 30/mo data plans that most people will not take advantage of.

AceofSpades25 · Nov 22, 2010

nrfitchett4 said:
that closed system with only 1 device to develop for is the reason apple was able to build its marketplace. Developers did not have to worry about making multiple versions of their application for the marketplace. Have you read the comments from Rovio lately???? They have to make a "lite" version of Angry Birds because android fragmentation means their very popular game doesn't work across all android phones the same.
How many android phones are still waiting for a 2.2 update when 2.3 is about to drop on the nexus one???
Apple does some things well, so does android, but neither is perfect. WP7 is trying to find a balance between the 2.
As a Microsoft developer I would think that you would welcome having only to develop 1 application for mobile instead of 2 or more versions to work with legacy devices. Not to mention, most of the developers are raving about the software abilities of this phone.

Yeah... I don't think developers really care all that muh about fragmentation. Look at Android with over 100'000 apps, its fast on the heels of iOS. I do agree though that I do love developing for WP7. XAML is a beautiful language and a real pleasure to use, but this only makes me more upset that they have shackled the OS so badly.

AceofSpades25 · Nov 22, 2010

nrfitchett4 said:
if this were the case then how come I've answered questions on this forum like "how to I get more memory on my phone?"
"How do I move files to my card, my phone says its out of memory?"
Your avg smartphone users these days are not necessarily tech savvy considering t-mobile tends to have sales on them every other week for less than 100 bucks. Pretty sure they are running a huge sale on black friday. This means by sunday, we'll have a lot of people that found this site through google asking some very interesting questions.
So exactly what was microsoft supposed to do?
Release a WinMo 6.6 with no real UI improvements on a platform that hasn't performed that well to date? Would that help them gain back any of the bleeding marketshare from android or apple?
Smartphone users are growing at a very fast rate. Most of them probably don't even know how to move a file on their computer, much less their phone. I should know, I am married to one of those people. She just hands me her hd2 and tells me what she wants on it. Even had to create a shortcut to her movies folder so she could find them...

They were right to start again with silverlight and XNA

Some examples of what else they should have done:

Insist that makers provide it with a minimum of 4GB NAND to hold the OS, applications and any other files they don't want users to touch.

- Allow makers the option of including a MicroSD slot for general file storage:
PDF's, Game save files, Pictures, Movies, MP3's
- Continue to sandbox 3rd party apps if they insist this is better for security, but still allow all apps to access a shared space e.g. The MicroSD card.
- Keep the UI as simple as it is, but don't intentionally disallow basic functionality that users have come to expect from smartphones.

There is no going back now that hardware has been released for the platform, but going forward, they could still open up a partition for users to store general files on. I have been petitioning Microsoft to do this for weeks now, unfortunately they don't like to admit they got things wrong.

p.s. whether or not the phone is free up front, you will still be paying the full £500 or more with your contract. In the UK sim only contracts with a data plan are £15/month. For the HD7 on 3, it is £40/month for 24 months. That's a difference of £25. Over a 24 month contract you're paying £600 for the phone.

nrfitchett4 · Nov 22, 2010

AceofSpades25 said:
They were right to start again with silverlight and XNA

Some examples of what else they should have done:

Insist that makers provide it with a minimum of 4GB NAND to hold the OS, applications and any other files they don't want users to touch.

- Allow makers the option of including a MicroSD slot for general file storage:
PDF's, Game save files, Pictures, Movies, MP3's
- Continue to sandbox 3rd party apps if they insist this is better for security, but still allow all apps to access a shared space e.g. The MicroSD card.
- Keep the UI as simple as it is, but don't intentionally disallow basic functionality that users have come to expect from smartphones.

There is no going back now that hardware has been released for the platform, but going forward, they could still open up a partition for users to store general files on. I have been petitioning Microsoft to do this for weeks now, unfortunately they don't like to admit they got things wrong.

p.s. whether or not the phone is free up front, you will still be paying the full £500 or more with your contract. In the UK sim only contracts with a data plan are £15/month. For the HD7 on 3, it is £40/month for 24 months. That's a difference of £25. Over a 24 month contract you're paying £600 for the phone.

but the carriers don't care how they get their money, either up front or over the life of your contract.
I agree microsoft could have made wp7 more open, but I'm thinking this might have been a concession to alot of developers who said it was too easy to pirate software on winmo and android. Skyfire and netflix specifically have raised questions about it.

janemanno1 · Nov 22, 2010

nrfitchett4 said:
I agree microsoft could have made wp7 more open, but I'm thinking this might have been a concession to alot of developers who said it was too easy to pirate software on winmo and android. Skyfire and netflix specifically have raised questions about it.

I am a developer myself so I can feel the pain of developers but that being said, it is just impossible to make something secure these days.

I have seen many programs that when you open them in decompilers and stuff, you can see that the developers have gone to great lengths to secure things but at the end, it can be hacked.

Simply make the apps cheap enough and make it an incentive for users to not pirate the thing.

CSMR · Nov 23, 2010

AceofSpades25 said:
There is no going back now that hardware has been released for the platform, but going forward, they could still open up a partition for users to store general files on.

Yes this would be ideal. SD cards are actually confusing if they are not merged with internal storage in some way, because you end up with files you want to categorize together (e.g. videos) in two separate folders.

However not having an area for general storage is inexcusable.

I have been petitioning Microsoft to do this for weeks now, unfortunately they don't like to admit they got things wrong.

Keep going! You are right and they are wrong!

lqaddict · Nov 23, 2010

tbk21 said:
Only windows phone 7 has MICROSOFT OFFICE, the iphone and android have third party apps to read office files. Those apps don't have the same functionality as a windows phone.

That's right, the third party apps for Android (not sure for iOS) add functionality to copy and paste within the documents

http://www.dataviz.com/products/documentstogo/android/feature_matrix.html

agp64 · Nov 23, 2010

lqaddict said:
That's right, the third party apps for Android (not sure for iOS) add functionality to copy and paste within the documents
http://www.dataviz.com/products/documentstogo/android/feature_matrix.html

Some one in Microsoft needs a boot in the pants for not having copy and paste from the get go. Who was it please tell us Microsoft so we can razz them.

kwill · Nov 23, 2010

ceesheim said:
Some information on ringtones :

So, if this documentation exist. What are (tools) the carries provided to access the registry (which we've seen done) and the actual windows directory? Can't we rip those off from somewhere

JK!

jasongw · Nov 24, 2010

I'll add that they need to update the Zune software to:

1. Backup all the apps off the phone, even the ones you've downloaded ON the phone.
2. Backup all data on the phone to the PC, including configuration (ideally such that one or the other can be restored independently from the other.)
3. Ability to restore the phone via the Zune software to its last backup.

Those are my biggies

eternalemb · Nov 24, 2010

jasongw said:
I'll add that they need to update the Zune software to:

1. Backup all the apps off the phone, even the ones you've downloaded ON the phone.
2. Backup all data on the phone to the PC, including configuration (ideally such that one or the other can be restored independently from the other.)
3. Ability to restore the phone via the Zune software to its last backup.

Those are my biggies

+1. Coming from a BlackBerry, missing this feature is a huge inconvenience.

nrfitchett4 · Nov 24, 2010

jasongw said:
I'll add that they need to update the Zune software to:

1. Backup all the apps off the phone, even the ones you've downloaded ON the phone.
2. Backup all data on the phone to the PC, including configuration (ideally such that one or the other can be restored independently from the other.)
3. Ability to restore the phone via the Zune software to its last backup.

Those are my biggies

I agree with all this. I am going to make a one note list of all installed apps to keep on skydrive since I have added a few apps straight from the phone.

killster · Nov 24, 2010

Notify via system notifications on exchange folders!??

Increase total unread email on tile to include emails in sub folders.

Please!

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