All U.S. V30/V3O+/V30S will need stock firmware, not LOS-based custom ROMs. When?

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schwinn8

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Aug 12, 2010
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Somewhere in Connecticut
Yeah, there's lots to like about GV... the big issue is that it's a Google property so it could change or go away, but it's been around for a while now, fortunately, and works quite well.

For example, my home phone ("landline" number) is on GV. It used to actually ring to my house phones via an OBi phone adapter - one time purchase of like $30 back in the day, and I had VOIP for no additional cost. I ran it in my previous house by disconnecting the wires to the phone company, and then using the existing home wiring to carry that output throughout the house for my cordless phones.

In this new house, I never bothered to set up the hardware. The phone number is still active, but it just goes to voicemail. I only give that number to companies so they can spam it all they want. If someone actually leaves a message, it's setup to let me know over email Anyone else/important has my cell number.

For the cell, I used to use GV as the number I gave out. It would forward to my actual cell. In addition, it provides all the VM capabilities. In the past, when texting was limited, I used GV texting exclusively as well - that way the carrier didn't charge me anything and I didn't need a texting plan. Nowadays, all phone calls and texts are unlimited, so I use the carrier number more often... but I could go back if I wanted to.

For business, I setup GV numbers for my company and my wife's as well. That way, I have a separate number, VM, and texting for those purposes. No one outside me knows that this is our setup - it works transparently for all callers. And, again, saves money because I don't need to pay for any service like this...

And then you can call from computers, tablets, whatever... and as long as you have wifi you can do that without even being on a cell network (ie, in other countries)... so no SIM card required, no global phones to deal with, no extra charges.

Basically, you can use any or all of GV to suit your needs. If you want texting, use that by itself. If you only want VM, then just use that. If you want a separate number, use that. Pick and choose and customize how you want to use it. All for no cost. Note, much of this started with another company in the past called GrandCentral... Google bought them, turned it into GV, and added some features/capability along the way.

I'm happy to help anyone with how to set things up, but we probably should move this discussion to a separate thread... feel free to call me into it if I miss it, as I don't spend a lot of time on the V30 section of XDA anymore (since I have an S10+ now).
 

ChazzMatt

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Nov 30, 2010
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Years ago if you weren't simply porting in, Google Voice would let you choose your new phone number...

And if you wanted it to "spell" something (like a business name) or maybe numbers that meant something to you (4 digit birthday?), they provided a number generator that would show you options within the area codes/region you chose.

They also let you have up to two phone numbers on one account.

It just happened the last 4 digits of my Verizon number was of significance to me and I definitely wanted to keep it. (No, I'm not telling why.) I ported it to Google Voice and then chose a 2nd number with the same last 4 digits in metro Atlanta. I've never used that 2nd number. It's just parked in my account, just in case.

Then I signed my wife up for Google Voice and chose two new phone numbers for her with the same last 4 digits. One of them became her main number, and the other is parked. (We didn't port her old carrier number.)

So, we both have cell numbers like:

770-555-1234 (main)
678-555-1234

404-555-1234 (main)
470-555-1234

(That 555 exchange is fictional for this example. Nor are the last 4 digits 1234. But all have matching last 4 digits.)

It causes questions when we give out our numbers to friends. ;) "HOW do you have the same last 4 digits in your phone numbers?" "And why?" Sometimes we tell, sometimes we don't. "It's a mystery."

Last time I checked, seems Google no longer has the number generator testing option.
 
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schwinn8

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2010
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Somewhere in Connecticut
They still let you choose your number that way. I did that when I setup my company number in September of last year. Obviously this doesn't apply if you're porting-in.

I did the same thing on my phone as well - I have the same area code and last 4... and the exchanges are off by a single digit, too. Unfortunately, this seems to confuse people even more, because now I have two VERY SIMILAR looking numbers, and the different digit is towards the middle, so people don't pay attention to the difference. Either way, they can still get to me... it just changes which way it shows up on my end.

One note - when texting, due to Google Messages, it's better for people to use my carrier number (for me)... so I try to get people to shift over without too much exposition (unlike here, where I type forever, as you can see!)
 
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schwinn8

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2010
887
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Somewhere in Connecticut
I'm not aware of a tutorial off the top of my head. If you're only looking to transfer VM, then you simply need to find the star-code for your carrier for unanswered forwarding. I think GV actually provides some of this info as you go through the process.

Here's a link I found for you anyway: https://support.google.com/voice/answer/165656?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform=Android and they include the star-codes for ATT and VZ...
 

ChazzMatt

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Nov 30, 2010
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They still let you choose your number that way. I did that when I setup my company number in September of last year. Obviously this doesn't apply if you're porting-in.

I did the same thing on my phone as well - I have the same area code and last 4... and the exchanges are off by a single digit, too. Unfortunately, this seems to confuse people even more, because now I have two VERY SIMILAR looking numbers, and the different digit is towards the middle, so people don't pay attention to the difference. Either way, they can still get to me... it just changes which way it shows up on my end.

One note - when texting, due to Google Messages, it's better for people to use my carrier number (for me)... so I try to get people to shift over without too much exposition (unlike here, where I type forever, as you can see!)

I use the Google Voice app for texting, on my cell phone as well as PC. Everyone with one exception.

Recently our long time bank has starting requiring my carrier phone number for texting security codes when logging in. Annoyed me and my wife as we never give out our irrelevant, throwaway carrier phone numbers to anyone. But I had to give them my carrier phone number as did my wife, when "email" randomly doesn't show up as an option. Yet my credit union still happily uses my Google Voice number for texting security codes, as my bank previously did. Go figure.

=====

@schwinn8, just sent you a PM about something else. I often don't see PMs myself, so just letting you know.
 
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schwinn8

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2010
887
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Somewhere in Connecticut
Yeah, I've seen that far too often - they refuse to take my "home" number for some reason, and want a "real" texting number. I don't get why - if I receive texts fine, then they should STFU... but I have used my carrier number for that because I found no other way around it.

I wonder what true VOIP users would do in those situations? Ie, if I have Comcrap's VOIP phone at home, and it was my only phone, what then?
 
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ChazzMatt

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Nov 30, 2010
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Yeah, I've seen that far too often - they refuse to take my "home" number for some reason, and want a "real" texting number. I don't get why - if I receive texts fine, then they should STFU... but I have used my carrier number for that because I found no other way around it.

I wonder what true VOIP users would do in those situations? Ie, if I have Comcrap's VOIP phone at home, and it was my only phone, what then?

I have Vonage for home phone, and have since like 2004 when I dumped Bell South (prior to it becoming AT&T). It's pure VoIP. They accept that as my home phone for verification calls, but just won't accept a Google Voice number for texting. Inconsistent.
 

ChazzMatt

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Nov 30, 2010
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Atlanta, Georgia
It's been 3 months to the day since the start of AT&T's 3G shutdown and my V30 with LOS still works on AT&T. 🤷‍♂️

Interesting that your 3G towers are still functional.

Here in Atlanta area, my AT&T number stopped working back then. I had to switch to "data" calls on Google Voice and I can no longer initiate calls with regular phone dialer as it tries to use AT&T number. Back when it was working correctly, the call would start with my carrier number but transfer over to some Google phone exchange (seamlessly) and then show up recipient's caller ID as my Google Voice number. Or when people called me, my Google Voice would immediately forward to my AT&T number and my phone would ring. Worked fine for 10 years.

Now, I am having to use AT&T data for Google Voice calls when I'm not connected to Wi-Fi here at the house.

At least my AT&T texting still works for my bank security challenges.
 
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Osprey00

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Jul 21, 2009
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Interesting that your 3G towers are still functional.

Here in Atlanta area, my AT&T number stopped working back then. I had to switch to "data" calls on Google Voice and I can no longer initiate calls with regular phone dialer as it tries to use AT&T number. Back when it was working correctly, the call would start with my carrier number but transfer over to some Google phone exchange (seamlessly) and then show up recipient's caller ID as my Google Voice number. Or when people called me, my Google Voice would immediately forward to my AT&T number and my phone would ring. Worked fine for 10 years.

Now, I am having to use AT&T data for Google Voice calls when I'm not connected to Wi-Fi here at the house.

At least my AT&T texting still works for my bank security challenges.

I'm near Nashville, so not too far from you. AT&T's coverage map shows that I'm deeply within 5G territory, so it seems like an exaggeration, at least, that they had to cannibalize 3G to expand 5G. They may've quietly caved to the complaints from industries that still rely on 3G (security companies, automobile companies using OnStar and the like) and I'm benefiting from it.

When your AT&T number stopped working, it may not be that the 3G towers stopped working, but that AT&T deactivated your phone because they shipped you a new one. They did the same to me last August. I woke up and suddenly had no service. I had to chat with AT&T and ask them to re-activate it, which they did. I haven't had any issues with service since.

I imagine that I'll lose coverage eventually, but I'm not going to replace my favorite phone ever if it's still fully functional. The longer that I hold out, the cheaper the phones that I'm considering will be or the better the phones in my price range will be. I have AT&T's trash phone to switch to temporarily while waiting if/when that happens.
 
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ChazzMatt

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Nov 30, 2010
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Atlanta, Georgia
I'm near Nashville, so not too far from you. AT&T's coverage map shows that I'm deeply within 5G territory, so it seems like an exaggeration, at least, that they had to cannibalize 3G to expand 5G. They may've quietly caved to the complaints from industries that still rely on 3G (security companies, automobile companies using OnStar and the like) and I'm benefiting from it.

When your AT&T number stopped working, it may not be that the 3G towers stopped working, but that AT&T deactivated your phone because they shipped you a new one. They did the same to me last August. I woke up and suddenly had no service. I had to chat with AT&T and ask them to re-activate it, which they did. I haven't had any issues with service since.

I imagine that I'll lose coverage eventually, but I'm not going to replace my favorite phone ever if it's still fully functional. The longer that I hold out, the cheaper the phones that I'm considering will be or the better the phones in my price range will be. I have AT&T's trash phone to switch to temporarily while waiting if/when that happens.

Yes, they did de-activate my V30+. But I switched over to the Note 9 they sent me -- which I rooted. It already had a SIM card in it, and they had already activated it when they deactivated the V30+. I never took the deactivated SIM card out of the V30+.

But for some time, several weeks, 3G still worked on the Note 9 when I made or received calls. My Google Voice piggy backed on my AT&T number. Solid signal as usual. Now that 3G no longer works and my phone doesn't have VoLTE (because I won't update to the firmware that enables it, as I would lose root), then I am relying solely upon AT&T LTE data when out of the house and Wi-Fi data in my house. My calls on Wi-Fi are solid but my phone calls when on LTE data sometimes sound sketchy, like I'm going through a tunnel. I do not connect my phone to my work Wi-Fi, on purpose, for personal reasons.

It's ironic AT&T sent me this phone (carrier unlocked Note 9) which should have AT&T VoLTE -- but not Wi-Fi calling as it's not AT&T branded. Yet, I don't actually have AT&T VoLTE (because I'm purposely not on current firmware) -- but I do have Wi-Fi calling (thanks to Google Voice) and I have Google Voice calls through AT&T LTE data, which is technically VoIP, so I guess voice over LTE (VoLTE).
 
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Osprey00

Senior Member
Jul 21, 2009
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I finally lost 3G recently and, with it, the ability to make and receive calls. Remembering what ChazzMatt had said, I immediately installed Google Voice, picked a number and set it up. Next, I took the SIM card out, put it into the trash phone that AT&T sent me, turned the phone on, dialed *21*<my new 10-digit GV number># and tapped Call. That's the procedure for setting up call forwarding with AT&T and requires a phone that works on their network. Other carriers may have a different code or instructions for setting up call forwarding. Anyways, after a few seconds, I powered down, removed the SIM card and put it back into my V30+. Finally, I set Google Voice to be my default Phone app and replaced the original app's icon on my homescreen with GV's.

Everything works great. I can receive calls made to my AT&T number (they get forwarded to my GV number), receive calls made to my GV number and make calls from my GV number. The only minor inconvenience is that friends and family need to add my GV number to their contact for me in order to see that it's me calling, but that's not a big deal, since I prefer to text them. Porting my AT&T number to GV would presumably solve that, but I understand that that would cancel my AT&T service and require me to sign up for new service with someone, which I don't want.

If you set up Google Voice for the same purpose, it's important to NOT let the GV app link your carrier number because that's apparently for forwarding incoming GV calls to your carrier number, which is the opposite of what we want. I had them linked for a while before I realized that I wasn't receiving calls because they were caught in a forwarding loop. Also in GV, you want to set "Making and receiving calls" to "Prefer Wi-Fi and mobile data."

Thanks again to @ChazzMatt for helping me realize that Google Voice could be a solution in order to keep using my V30+. I'm still perfectly happy with it and happy that I don't have to replace it just yet.
 
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Osprey00

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Jul 21, 2009
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@ChazzMatt You may have gotten the same thing, but I got a text message from AT&T today about an offer for a free Galaxy S22 if I trade in any Galaxy of any condition. The deal expires tomorrow (9/29) and can be found at att.com/getmygalaxy or att.com/epicdeals. I filled out the form to see what the trade-in value for the S10+ is and it said $800 (compared to $5 for my V30+, haha), so the deal seems real. Now I wish that I'd followed your lead earlier in the year and bought the S10+ because I could've turned it into an S22. Oh well. I thought that I'd at least make sure that you didn't miss it.
 
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ChazzMatt

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@ChazzMatt You may have gotten the same thing, but I got a text message from AT&T today about an offer for a free Galaxy S22 if I trade in any Galaxy of any condition. The deal expires tomorrow (9/29) and can be found at att.com/getmygalaxy or att.com/epicdeals. I filled out the form to see what the trade-in value for the S10+ is and it said $800 (compared to $5 for my V30+, haha), so the deal seems real. Now I wish that I'd followed your lead earlier in the year and bought the S10+ because I could've turned it into an S22. Oh well. I thought that I'd at least make sure that you didn't miss it.
Thanks for thinking of me. And it's nice the only trade in deals aren't just for the new iPhones, like the commercials suggest.

But for now I'm keeping what I have, because it's rooted and I'm happy with it.

Also, I recently switched back to AT&T Prepaid -- as I only had AT&T postpaid for the microcell I could have on my account. When 3G went away, AT&T also disabled all their microcells. So, as I'm dependent upon Google Voice for phone calls (with Wi-Fi at home and AT&T data away from home), I cut my costs by going with AT&T Prepaid.

Paying less than $75 total for 3 accounts, with 15GB (mine)/5GB (wife)/5GB (elderly mother).

But these enticing trade in deals are for people with "postpaid", like I had for a couple years.
 
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tech_infinity

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Jun 16, 2014
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@ChazzMatt You may have gotten the same thing, but I got a text message from AT&T today about an offer for a free Galaxy S22 if I trade in any Galaxy of any condition. The deal expires tomorrow (9/29) and can be found at att.com/getmygalaxy or att.com/epicdeals. I filled out the form to see what the trade-in value for the S10+ is and it said $800 (compared to $5 for my V30+, haha), so the deal seems real. Now I wish that I'd followed your lead earlier in the year and bought the S10+ because I could've turned it into an S22. Oh well. I thought that I'd at least make sure that you didn't miss it.
why not buy a used Samsung galaxy for cheap and trade it in :p
 
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  • 10
    All U.S. V30/V3O+/V30S will need stock firmware, not LOS-based custom ROMs. When?
    3G CDMA and HSPA is going away. U.S. users will NEED VoLTE and/or Wi-Fi calling for carrier phone calls. V30 LOS-based ROMs do not have that and will never have that.


    By "all", I mean customers of U.S. carriers Verizon, T-mobile (& Sprint), AT&T -- and all MVNOs (Straight Talk, Ting, etc) using those major carriers. There are some regional carriers (not MVNOs) who have their own towers and FCC bandwidth licenses, i.e. parts of Appalachia, upper Michigan peninsula, remote areas of Texas, parts of Alaska, for which this timetable ostensibly seems not to apply. BUT IT DOES. All these regional carriers have roaming agreements with at least one of the major national carriers for when their customers travel outside their isolated regional towers coverage. If you can't make phone calls in another state or even another part of your state, what good is roaming? :rolleyes:

    No, this doesn't affect people outside the U.S., unless they come to visit U.S. (tourist, work, school).

    • In 6 months, you will not be able to use LOS-based custom ROMs with V30 on Verizon or T-mobile and T-mobile owned Sprint (that brand is going away).
    • In 18 months, you will not be able to use LOS-based custom ROMs with V30 on AT&T.

    * As of December 31, 2020 Verizon is dropping 3G CDMA to repurpose bandwidth for 5G.
    After that date, to make any phone calls on Verizon you will need Verizon VoLTE/Wi-Fi Calling. No V30 LOS-based custom ROMs have carrier VoLTE/Wi-Fi calling or will ever have those features. You will need stock Verizon firmware and an account with VoLTE enabled by Verizon. It can be rooted stock firmware; you can use Magisk modules to add custom ROM type features -- but it needs to be on Verizon firmware for VoLTE. Verizon calls it "HD Calling". That feature has to be enabled on a Verizon IMEI phone. People who have it enabled in their Verizon account can then use any North American variant flashed to Verizon VS996 (even rooted) firmware. Some people use older Verizon phones to enable the "HD Calling" (VoLTE) feature then switch SIM card to their non-Verizon V30 (like LS998 V30+ converted to VS996). Another workaround is to use a Verizon MVNO like Total Wireless which gives you "Enhanced 4G LTE Mode" (a.k.a. VoLTE) while using Verizon towers. You don't need Verizon's permission. However, if you have native Verizon VS996, you don't have to worry about such workarounds.

    * T-mobile users are in the same predicament, almost same timeline.
    In January 2021, T-mobile will be dropping 3G HSPA for same reasons. At that date, T-mobile users will need VoLTE or Wi-Fi Calling to make carrier phones calls. Those features only come with V30 stock firmware (or stock-based ROMs). However, T-mobile is less stingy than Verizon. They also allow V30 phones with US998 firmware to have VoLTE/Wi-Fi calling with T-mobile SIM. Whereas Verizon not only requires Verizon stock firmware, VoLTE needs to have been activated on a phone with Verizon IMEI at some point.

    * AT&T will also eventually drop 3G HSPA -- but not until February 2022 (18 months from now).
    So, for U.S. V30 owners who wish to run V30 LOS custom ROMs a little longer, you should check out AT&T Prepaid. It's a lot cheaper than "regular" AT&T (Postpaid, a.k.a. contract AT&T), but AT&T Prepaid is only for people who own their phones (not financed). It you own your phone outright, it's a GREAT deal! AT&T Prepaid uses same AT&T servers as AT&T Postpaid. On the 8GB plan I am not throttled whatsoever (70 Mbps - 90 Mbps)and have very low pings (low lag). See plan rates at that link.

    Right now, AT&T (Prepaid and Postpaid) still allows you to Bring Your Own Phone. I have three US998 on AT&T; two of them are on AT&T Prepaid, one on AT&T Postpaid. And AT&T won't shut down 3G HSPA for another 18 months!

    What happens when AT&T finally does shut down HSPA? :confused:
    AT&T only gives VoLTE to AT&T IMEI phones, as well as iPhones and some other phones I would never own. Even though I'm a long-time AT&T customer, I've never used an AT&T branded phone on AT&T. I always buy carrier-unlocked Android flagship phones with specific checklist of features I want. I'm an AT&T customer with three native US998 V30/V30+ for myself, my wife, my mother -- so I'll cross that bridge when I come to it in February 2022. Will probably give my mother a AT&T V35. Maybe my wife, too. (V35 is basically a V40 in a V30 case; no notch.) Also, by 2022 LG may get their act together and produce a good phone for the LG V70 or LG V80. I may not own V30 by then. Or AT&T may decide to VoLTE whitelist US998 V30 like they whitelisted carrier-unlocked V35...

    18 months is a long time. Anything can happen in 18 months!

    To reiterate, any MVNOs (Straight Talk, Ting, etc.) which use Verizon, T-mobile/Sprint, and AT&T will also be affected by these upcoming 3G shutdown/VoLTE required decisions.

    _________

    When the deadline does hit -- like for Verizon or T-mobile and you need to stay on that carrier for some reason -- you can flash back to stock firmware via KDZ with Dev Patched LGUP or via TWRP-flashable zips (stock ROMs) located in the V30 Development section.

    Again, if you don't want to do this in the next six months (you still want to run V30 LOS-based ROMs), and you don't NEED Verizon or T-mobile (Sprint), simply switch to AT&T Prepaid and you can postpone until February 2022! Yes, you could also use an AT&T MVNO, but I'm not a fan of most AT&T MVNOs. Most MVNOs throttle to low speeds (like Cricket) and/or have high pings (lag). The only exception I'm aware of is Red Pocket MNVO, which is actually pretty good. Just make sure you choose their "GSMA" (AT&T) SIM card -- since they have a choice of carrier towers. You want AT&T to be the underlying provider, to keep 3G HPSA as long as possible.

    att_prepaid.png


    red_pocket.png

    _______

    Yes, XDA News had a write up of this couple of days ago. See link below. But it was more general -- focusing on what phones you needed to have for each U.S. carrier's VoLTE. This post is more specific -- about not being able to use LOS-based custom ROMs on any LG V30 variant phone when the deadline hits, and how to DELAY that deadline. ;)

    t-mobile-volte-810x298_c.jpg

    T-Mobile will require VoLTE for all phones starting January 2021, AT&T to follow suit in February 2022 – Here’s what that means for you
    https://www.xda-developers.com/t-mobile-att-require-volte-phone-calls-shut-down-3g/
    4
    Is anyone working on a debloated stock ROM? Would love to have VOLTE but the stock ROM is just full of crap..
    No one works on stock, but me.
    I'm AiX rom creator amd developer.
    For sorrow due some earlier problems with some unnormal users here, I do not provide firmware here, at XDA, and provide it only in my Telegram group/channel.
    3
    SO i activated a GSMA SIM with Red Pocket. I used US998 for a while and then tried this H931 Rom. It seemed to work fine but it said my SD card was corrupted and needed to be formatted. I didnt of course because it is packed with all my stuff....oly seems to be an issue on this rom? (tried it twice) all fine on US998

    Thoughts?

    also, is this the only ROM you can think of with the GSMA that will get voWIFI, voLTE, VVM etc?

    What about the CDMAS....I think we said nothing will work?

    @ChazzMatt feel free to interject ;)

    Let's sum it up:

    1) AT&T / Red Pocket GSMA: US998 ROM supports VoLTE, but NOT VoWiFi, nor menus. H931 ROM will give you everything, but we only have an older (mid Oreo) version and will probably never get anything newer. You can try H933 ROM (use Frankenstein via Nougat).

    2) Sprint / Red Pocket CDMAS: LS998 phones (IMEI) with LS998 ROM (stock KDZ or JohnFawkes) should support everything (Red Pocket specifically mentions it here). US998 ROM lacks some Sprint LTE bands, plus TMO is about to retire Sprints CMDA business.

    3) T-Mobile / Red Pocket GSMT: US998 ROM supports VoLTE and VoWiFi and menus; possibly VVM too. If you have good TMO reception in your area, it is the most functional choice on US998. Reception should only improve as TMO starts using 800 and 850 MHZ bands from Sprint. The US998 ROM supports most TMO LTE bands, although not 600 MHz B71.

    4) Verizon / Red Pocket CDMA: Can only be activated Verizon phones (IMEI) but should work on US998 ROM after moving activated SIM card over, according to several XDA reports. Of course VS996 ROM should work even better. Red Pocket offers VoLTE on CDMA, but NOT VoWiFi. Other MVNOs may be better choice until Red Pocket starts offering VoWiFi.

    The following two Red Pocket support pages about VoLTE and VoWiFi have been kept updated throughout this year:

    What is VoLTE and can I use it with my Red Pocket service?

    What is WiFi calling and can I use it with my Red Pocket service?

    Generally the most complete support for a carrier's features are always with their branded phones and ROMs. V30 holds up pretty well for a 3.5 year old phone, and its flexibility is incredibly thanks to Frankenstein and WTF. But some compromises are inevitable. I think a compelling case can be made for the combo of TMO/GSMT and US998 ROM (on ANY North American IMEI -- except TMO's H932).

    Edit: May I suggest you consider getting a Google Voice number? This will give you WiFi Calling and visual voice mail regardless of carrier support, plus the ability to make/receive calls and text messages on multiple devices (phones/PCs/tablets). You can keep your current carrier number and use the Google Voice number as your primary (I do this). Or you can port your current carrier number to Google Voice (keep it as your primary) and get a new carrier number which nobody will ever see (my wife did that). Setting it up and using it is outside the topic of this thread, but it is relevant for those who depend on VoWiFi. Nothing to do with VoLTE though, which is for when you are outside WiFi range.
    3
    That's when you have a choice to use the report fuction. People like myself will never go to telegram. I still have my V30 and would like to tinker with it.
    Yeah, say what you will about xda rules being overbearing or draconian, but there's a certain security to it you won't find in the Wild West that is TG. That freedom from lawlessness is a real false sense of progress that flies in the face of security and due process