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Bounty for a fully functional Exynos GCAM port

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citytrader

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Jan 19, 2012
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The night mode on Exynos sucks, but overall sharpness is pretty bad for regular indoor pics. And the colors are washed out as compared to Snapdragon version. Samsung needs to fix all of these issues on Exynos.

It will be very interesting to see the pictures you shot showing the problems you get with Exynos where the colors are washed and the lack of sharpness... upload the pictures without retouch and if its possible in RAW format too.
 

VICosPhi

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2010
1,361
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Phoenix
It will be very interesting to see the pictures you shot showing the problems you get with Exynos where the colors are washed and the lack of sharpness... upload the pictures without retouch and if its possible in RAW format too.

Here you go, did not upload RAW as I think that will be fine. The issue is with processing of the JPG images final result.
https://imgur.com/a/2fNvxTn
 
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citytrader

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Jan 19, 2012
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Here you go, did not upload RAW as I think that will be fine. The issue is with processing of the JPG images final result.
https://imgur.com/a/2fNvxTn

That does not help, I need the original JPEG images with the complete EXIF information and they should be exposed correctly, the pictures in IMGUR are underexposed and write what mode you shot the pictures.
Upload them to Wetransfer and if you have the RAW files, the better.
 

VICosPhi

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2010
1,361
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Phoenix
That does not help, I need the original JPEG images with the complete EXIF information and they should be exposed correctly, the pictures in IMGUR are underexposed and write what mode you shot the pictures.
Upload them to Wetransfer and if you have the RAW files, the better.

Here are the original jpeg images with EXIF data uploaded to Wetransfer. I used picture/auto mode with scene detection on. If you don't see the difference in these I can upload more. The text in S10 pictures is always fuzzy/unclear when compared to S9 snapdragon or Note9 Exynos which means the sharpness correction is an issue in S10 Exynos(maybe on Snapdragon S10 too but I don't have it). Colors are washed out in both S10/Note9 Exynos and much richer/saturated in Snapdragon S9. Blacks look grey in S10+ Exynos (not sure about Snapdragon S10).

https://we.tl/t-ZfWYcAFzyw
 

citytrader

Senior Member
Jan 19, 2012
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Here are the original jpeg images with EXIF data uploaded to Wetransfer. I used picture/auto mode with scene detection on. If you don't see the difference in these I can upload more. The text in S10 pictures is always fuzzy/unclear when compared to S9 snapdragon or Note9 Exynos which means the sharpness correction is an issue in S10 Exynos(maybe on Snapdragon S10 too but I don't have it). Colors are washed out in both S10/Note9 Exynos and much richer/saturated in Snapdragon S9. Blacks look grey in S10+ Exynos (not sure about Snapdragon S10).

https://we.tl/t-ZfWYcAFzyw

Can you shot another picture in pro mode and RAW?, the RAW file is important here, I will prefer both shot in RAW
 

citytrader

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Jan 19, 2012
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Here is RAW comparison. Washed out blurry S10+ Exynos is noticeable.
https://we.tl/t-kwmW4U9ifA

Thanks a lot for your pictures, I retouched them a bit taking in consideration that the clock is pure white as a reference, so the color could not be the same a you see directly.
The RAW files shows clearly that the better pictures are the one from S10+ because of this:
- Much more detail in S10 and I prefer the little more noise in S10 because it gives more freedom to clean the picture later. In S9 details are lost due to heavier noise reduction in the sensor (not in the post process of JPG).
- In S9 there is color lost due to excessive saturation
- There is more dynamic range in the s10 compared to the s9...

I have to disagree about what you think of S10 camera.

S10 on the left


S10 on the left



S9 TOUCHED





S10+ TOUCHED



I did another test to compare how much the JPG post processing is bad, take a look at this.

RAW - Scene Optimizer: OFF - Scene Optimizer: ON (RAW the left image)
The algorithm applied to the JPG add fake detail smearing out the real detail you see in the RAW, and the RAW has better color. If you shot with DSLR, the result will be similar to the RAW, not to the JPG output.
Take a look at the Huawei P30pro camera, you will see a tremendous microcontrast applied to the jpgs, something that destroys details if you want to do a good post process

NOTE: The lens at f1.5 are less sharp than the lens at f2.4, so ever shot at f2.4 and leave f1.5 as last resort

 
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VICosPhi

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Aug 2, 2010
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Phoenix
Thanks for analyzing the pictures. I agree that S10 shows more details at the expense of added noise. For me, the added noise makes key components in a picture appear blurry(such as text). Also, the color accuracy of S10 for finer objects, is just not there. The windows on that house picture are bright red and those show as grey/black in S10 picture. You seem to know more about photography than me so I respect your analysis. However, I think for a point and shoot phone camera, we should not have to retouch the image to bring the best out of it(unless using pro mode).
Have you looked at the Anandtech comparison of S10+ Exynos vs S10+ Snapdragon? They also mention the dynamic range and color looks better on Snapdragon version.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14072/the-samsung-galaxy-s10plus-review/17
 

citytrader

Senior Member
Jan 19, 2012
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Thanks for analyzing the pictures. I agree that S10 shows more details at the expense of added noise. For me, the added noise makes key components in a picture appear blurry(such as text). Also, the color accuracy of S10 for finer objects, is just not there. The windows on that house picture are bright red and those show as grey/black in S10 picture. You seem to know more about photography than me so I respect your analysis. However, I think for a point and shoot phone camera, we should not have to retouch the image to bring the best out of it(unless using pro mode).
Have you looked at the Anandtech comparison of S10+ Exynos vs S10+ Snapdragon? They also mention the dynamic range and color looks better on Snapdragon version.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14072/the-samsung-galaxy-s10plus-review/17

Taking ever your example, left is S10 and the output of S10 is a bit better, something impossible to detect looking at the picture in any situation (I applied harder NR and I didn't sharpen the image).





About the color, is something that could be solved with the firmware, I didn't test the color in my unit because is something I can calibrate later in Photoshop.
About the point&shot concept, is something that the people in general has a wrong concept, the pictures from ALL cameras needs retouch at post, all without exception, this is the price you pay to go digital because in the device you don't have good software compared to what you get with Photoshop, sensors are not linear and poorly calibrated at the source, this is not a Canon camera where you get all much better calibration from the factory, the camera from smartphones are limited a lot.

I prefer most of the time to do the test by myself, where do you see in Anandtech that they are giving the source images as it should happen with a serious analysis? I don't trust reviews where I don't have the original pictures.

Where in the analysis they tell you that the S10+ has a dynamic range aprox of 7.5 stops?... this is the result I've got at ISO 50, it means that as soon as you go up in ISO, the dynamic range goes even lower.
Color looks better in no camera if you don't calibrate it at home, even worse in smartphones where the colors are very saturated.

People should ever shot in RAW, jpg should be left as last resort. If you ask how is the jpg output of my Canon cameras, my answer will be "I don't know" because I never shoot in JPG since I bought them.

People likes to read reviews and compares one sensor to another when they should blame the Samsung engineers that are doing a bad work at software level, but if you shot RAW you won't care what algorithms they are using to post process JPGs, the clear example is my comparison where you see the fake post process they are doing to show artificial detail.

Have you tried OPEN CAMERA? just give a try, it takes a while for the color calibration.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.sourceforge.opencamera
VERY IMPORTANT: Disable all kind of noise reduction and banding in the Open Camera app and clean the JPG in Photoshop.

On the left Samsung camera and on the right Open Camera, by long Open camera has more natural jpg result, not fake details, Open Camera is a bit tricky at color rendition but you can do lot of funny things like stacking to remove noise like you will see in my post:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/s10-plus/how-to/iso-comparison-raw-800-vs-pro-mode-800-t3916264



A final note, I use the camera in my S10+ in the cases where I don't carry my camera, if I travel, I use my mirrorless ever, is another world.
 
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VICosPhi

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2010
1,361
261
Phoenix
About the color, is something that could be solved with the firmware, I didn't test the color in my unit because is something I can calibrate later in Photoshop.

I prefer most of the time to do the test by myself, where do you see in Anandtech that they are giving the source images as it should happen with a serious analysis? I don't trust reviews where I don't have the original pictures.

Have you tried OPEN CAMERA? just give a try, it takes a while for the color calibration.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.sourceforge.opencamera
VERY IMPORTANT: Disable all kind of noise reduction and banding in the Open Camera app and clean the JPG in Photoshop.

Thank you! That was a very informative post! Yes Anandtech did not show raw pics. I may be able to get a raw pic if I get the Snapdragon version soon. I hope Samsung fixes the color issue in future firmware upgrade. You are right in regards to using a dedicated camera, it is just that most people including myself are lazy and want to use the convenience of the phone. I do carry My RX100-III when I travel and the pics are amazing even though I use JPEGs on it and not RAW.
Thanks, will try Open camera app, the pic looks much better with it. Do you have any recommendations on a Windows PC based software to view DNG files? I have ACDSEE but it just shows black square for those DNG files. Again, thank you very much for all the insights!
 
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citytrader

Senior Member
Jan 19, 2012
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Thank you! That was a very informative post! Yes Anandtech did not show raw pics. I may be able to get a raw pic if I get the Snapdragon version soon. I hope Samsung fixes the color issue in future firmware upgrade. You are right in regards to using a dedicated camera, it is just that most people including myself are lazy and want to use the convenience of the phone. I do carry My RX100-III when I travel and the pics are amazing even though I use JPEGs on it and not RAW.
Thanks, will try Open camera app, the pic looks much better with it. Do you have any recommendations on a Windows PC based software to view DNG files? I have ACDSEE but it just shows black square for those DNG files. Again, thank you very much for all the insights!

In the smartphone market, vendors are trying to show that their pictures are sharper than the competitors cheating customers, basically what they are doing is creating fake details, is a war of software post processing, you look at the pictures and they seem to be sharper but what you are looking at is a fake picture, the same goes to Huawei P30pro where if you zoom the picture, you will see heavy micro-contrast applied to the picture destroying the possibility to do anything good at post process. (Samsung applies heavy micro-contrast in their jpgs too)
As a rule of dumb, the less sharp the JPG the better but taking in consideration that it should not be less sharp than a RAW image, otherwise there is something wrong, the same goes for noise or at least the companies should give the option to apply different levels of NR in JPG like Open Camera does.

For DNG I'm using Zoner Photo Studio with Color Management enabled.
 
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crazyguns

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Aug 24, 2011
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Taking ever your example, left is S10 and the output of S10 is a bit better, something impossible to detect looking at the picture in any situation (I applied harder NR and I didn't sharpen the image).





About the color, is something that could be solved with the firmware, I didn't test the color in my unit because is something I can calibrate later in Photoshop.
About the point&shot concept, is something that the people in general has a wrong concept, the pictures from ALL cameras needs retouch at post, all without exception, this is the price you pay to go digital because in the device you don't have good software compared to what you get with Photoshop, sensors are not linear and poorly calibrated at the source, this is not a Canon camera where you get all much better calibration from the factory, the camera from smartphones are limited a lot.

Thanks for this post, very interesting. Another one is this app I found on reddit that automatically processes DNG output from Pro mode and improves the dynamic range applying some custom post processing. Some have praised the final output but I'd love to know your opinion as well;

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=amirz.dngprocessor
 
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citytrader

Senior Member
Jan 19, 2012
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Thanks for this post, very interesting. Another one is this app I found on reddit that automatically processes DNG output from Pro mode and improves the dynamic range applying some custom post processing. Some have praised the final output but I'd love to know your opinion as well;

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=amirz.dngprocessor

Once you have the RAW the better option is Lightroom or Photoshop, here are the examples:

From left to right (Photoshop, DNG Processor, Samsung JPG Pro mode)

The Photoshop processed colors were calibrated by me and are mostly identical to the real scene





Sharpened only the Photoshop output and DNG Processor

 
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citytrader

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Jan 19, 2012
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Output comparison

I made another test today of the camera: RAW processed, Open Camera Jpg processed and Samsung Auto, you can compare the details in each one. That shot was in very bad lighting but it has different kinds of textures to check.
In Samsung auto, lot of microcontrast applied and fake details. I didn't apply any microcontrast to RAW and Open Camera JPGs.

SAMSUNG AUTO




RAW Processed


Open Camera JPG Processed


From left to right: Open Camera, Samsung auto, Raw



 
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citytrader

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Jan 19, 2012
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I just downloaded a RAW image of Pixel 3 XL and compared with a RAW from S10+, because I didn't shoot the Pixel 3 XL I can not make a real comparison, I can only approximate something from my thoughts, what I saw at low ISO is S10+ has little less noise than Pixel 3 XL, something that is unnoticeable from anybody, I did some pixel peeping and for that I saw the difference. The other difference I saw in the sample that the glass in Pixel 3XL is not sharpen on the edges and much less sharpen than S10+, in some words: the glass is crap.

I still don't understand why people is comparing cameras of the smartphones, all are very very limited...

If you want to compare the real stuff, ever compare RAW images, that gives you the truth about the sensor and the glass. Any site doing testings not posting RAW samples, should not be taken in consideration. In the case you shot only JPG, at this point testing only JPG will be enough, but here you are not testing the quality of the camera, you are testing the software algorithm.

I have the samples for comparison if anyone wants me to upload, different scenes but it gives an idea.
 
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Corv0

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Feb 28, 2019
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I just downloaded a RAW image of Pixel 3 XL and compared with a RAW from S10+, because I didn't shoot the Pixel 3 XL I can not make a real comparison, I can only approximate something from my thoughts, what I saw at low ISO is S10+ has little less noise than Pixel 3 XL, something that is unnoticeable from anybody, I did some pixel peeping and for that I saw the difference. The other difference I saw in the sample that the glass in Pixel 3XL is not sharpen on the edges and much less sharpen than S10+, in some words: the glass is crap.

I still don't understand why people is comparing cameras of the smartphones, all are very very limited...

If you want to compare the real stuff, ever compare RAW images, that gives you the truth about the sensor and the glass. Any site doing testings not posting RAW samples, should not be taken in consideration. In the case you shot only JPG, at this point testing only JPG will be enough, but here you are not testing the quality of the camera, you are testing the software algorithm.

I have the samples for comparison if anyone wants me to upload, different scenes but it gives an idea.

Thanks for confirming the truth behind all this mobile camera industry, the processed images are great too.

How long does it take you to process raws like that?
 

citytrader

Senior Member
Jan 19, 2012
1,372
522
Thanks for confirming the truth behind all this mobile camera industry, the processed images are great too.

How long does it take you to process raws like that?

In my case because I did this all the time, is between 1 to 3 min for basic stuff... If you adjust WB, contrast and sharpening, you should be doing all within that time too, it's pretty fast.
 
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Corv0

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2019
375
263
In my case because I did this all the time, is between 1 to 3 min for basic stuff... If you adjust WB, contrast and sharpening, you should be doing all within that time too, it's pretty fast.

How's that compared to taking a Samsung auto shot and adjusting it for realism? Wouldn't it just be faster?
 

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  • 18
    I am willing to donate 100USD and crowdfund another 900USD (I'm willing to inject another 400USD to help the crowdfund hit it's target) for any dev that can make a fully functional port of the gcam (with nightsight, portrait mode and a fully functional selfiecam) for the exynos version of the S10+. Spread the word, this is legit
    10
    Why? You are not missing anything with GCAM. I tried it with the Snapdragon and think it sucks compared to the stock app. Besides night mode is coming according to this post.

    Stock app will always be better since it's tailored for this hardware and it's the only guaranteed software to be kept updated, plus as Misterxtc mentioned, the dedicated night camera and much more is coming soon.

    Bounty for what? A third-party hackware all because you're illuded enough to still believe the gcam propaganda? This is not some cheap Xiaomi sharing the same sensor as the Pixels, our sensor is theoretically superior and the only one that can improve its processing is Samsung itself.

    Spare yourself the extra money, return your S10+, buy a cheap middlerange Chinese phone and a dedicated DLSR with the same money if you are so worried about insignificant picture detail that you all are going to ruin by sharing content with compressing social media apps.
    7
    Let's stay on track here, everyone. No flaming will be permitted. Offending posts will be deleted.
    6
    You were already warned by a mod previously to keep it civil, and it just went downhill from there.

    I suggest all of you take a deep breath and realize this looks like a group of 12 year olds fighting about who's smarter.

    Some of the past few posts had nothing to do with Gcam and more to do with belittling each other. If you want to have an argument about stock vs Gcam, that's perfectly acceptable, as long as it's calm. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and there's no reason for name calling just because of someone's personal preference being different than yours.

    Thread has been cleaned, let's keep it that way.
    4
    Anandtech disabled HDR on the Exynos, they also always pick the lowest scores when comparing benchmarks, the reviews is completely and ridiculously biased towards Qualcomm.
    I should keep it classy but I must say they're full of shjt and their authors are incompetent and arrogant.

    My HDR pictures are perfect and I'm sure about that, I'm not sure about Anandtech's reasoning behind their shady behaviour but it most likely involves money, if anything that will force Samsung to improve Exynos even more and purge that site of edgy geeks wannabe.

    Haha I love this theory. So you're claiming they're biased towards qualcomm even though they definitely praise a lot of the other aspects of the Exynos in the review, how it has a solidly better battery life when compared to 855, and how the A55 cores on the Exynos are way better. Where do you get the "disabled HDR" idea, they put both on Auto and took the photos, they even discuss the actual HDR processing.

    On the wide angle, the Exynos does a horrible result in the HDR processing. In the histrogram the top 15% of levels are nearly non-existing and this is why the image seems to flat, especially a lot of the greens are compressed far too much resulting in unnatural and flat textures on leaves and on the moss. We can also add this shot to the list of wide-angle results where the Snapdragon’s optics seem much better.
    The Mate 20 Pro is a contender for detail in this shot, but loses out in colours and dynamic range to the S10.

    Hmmm based on that last sentence now you'll claim they're Huawei Kirin shills. Lol way to "keep it classy" with your conspiracy theories mate.

    The fact is 99% of the reviews do not mention the fact that the Exynos camera app doesn't take full advantage of the processing like the Qualcomm model, and there is a clear difference that must be addressed by Samsung. It's a damn shame because the 9820 is a really capable beast and deserves the same amount of finesse and perfection that is present in the 855 software.