Finding batteries for this phone

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antoniu200

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Oct 3, 2016
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Well, they replied to me earlier this morning, they said they would let the product developing team know about our findings here, fingers crossed they will make some battery for the XZ1 Compact.
 

antoniu200

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Oct 3, 2016
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Well, today I got another phone I can use until I manage to find all the components I need for my XZ1 Compact, which means I will be able to send mine in to PolarCell, if they agree, so to help them design a quality battery.

Before this happens, the phone I got has like 1000 charging cycles on the battery, so I really need to change it. Since it's an iPhone and I want to evade the "Important message" crap, I will send the original battery to PolarCell to take the Battery Management chip out of and use it in their battery, in which time frame I will use the XZ1c, so me sending the XZ1c as a sample to PolarCell (and even asking if it's possible they send it back to me after they're done) will take a while.

It's a long shot, I know. But I think it's worth it.

For the interested, my XZ1 Compact is fully functional, but I do not like the quality of the screen I have bought as a replacement (colors are washed out compared to any quality LCD - even to my cheapo LG 18.5" TN monitor from 2011 - has 98% sRGB tho).
 

antoniu200

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Oct 3, 2016
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Okay, back with some news. I messed with some Battery Management boards for phone batteries. Since I want to replace a battery in a modern iPhone and not get a warning message, I would need to transfer the BM board from the original battery to the replacement battery. I don't have (or wish to invest in) a spotwelder, so I looked up the best possible way of doing such operation with a soldering iron.

Basically, after removing all the protections from the battery and exposing the BM board, you have to desolder the battery's terminals from the board. To avoid heating up the battery too much (obvious reasons), the way to do that is to try and expose some of the pad where the terminal is soldered on and apply some low-melt solder (135 C) there, to lower the melting temperature of the pre-applied solder (most likely lead-free - 217 C).

Best part of this is the same can be applied to a Z5 Compact battery: you take the XZ1 Compact battery's BM board (which includes the connector) and transfer it into the PolarCell Z5 Compact replacement battery. Bingo! You have a better than new battery for your XZ1 Compact.

I will test this concept soon and report back.
Maybe if we make some demand for that Z5 Compact battery from PolarCell, they'll have an incentive to make a fully compatible battery for the XZ1 Compact.

Don't try to do this if you are not comfortable soldering!

EDIT: Best tutorial for this concept (ignore the temperature "advice"):
 

burtallicus

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2012
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Bucharest
if they are right and their battery really has 2900 mAh replacing the controller might never charge the battery full. .... it would be like and extra battery care built in....as the battery will actually only load to 2700mAH about 90% .... am i right ?
 

antoniu200

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Oct 3, 2016
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if they are right and their battery really has 2900 mAh replacing the controller might never charge the battery full. .... it would be like and extra battery care built in....as the battery will actually only load to 2700mAH about 90% .... am i right ?
I would hope not. Most of the older BMs used to calculate battery percentage based on the operating voltage (i.e. a 3.8V battery can go as low as 3.2V and as high as 4.4V). Let's hope the BM allows the battery to keep charging even after the battery health capacity would indicate a full charge.

Only testing will reveal the situation here. Allow me some time and I will report back.

By the way, 2,900 mAh is at 3.8V. For 3.85V, we would have approximately 2,862 mAh.
The energy, 11.02 Wh, is constant. The capacity, (milli) ampere-hours here, is not.
 
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burtallicus

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Jul 15, 2012
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waiting to see ... :) i am in testing phase with this one https://rounded.com/sony-xperia-xz1-compact-g8441-battery-lip1648erpc-2700mah-1308-1851.html

they say is original OEM from sony ... doubt that as is was made in 2020.
if is not good ill put the original back in .... still gets me 2 day with 4-5 hours SOT....which is good for a 4 year bat

does anyone remembers what was the value displayed in the Service Menu ? ..... i am almost sure i never saw 270000 there ...more like 250000
 
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burtallicus

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2012
254
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Bucharest
Looks like this batt has some juice
Screenshot_20220923-234031.png
 

burtallicus

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2012
254
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Bucharest
Another 2 days plus with over 6 hours sot...
Is on par with the old original batt...
 

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antoniu200

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Oct 3, 2016
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Well, I took the LIP1648ERPC BMS and installed it to the Z5 Compact battery.

I must say I am stunned. This bit of PCB manages to make two batteries that would both have at least 2700 mAh look and act like 2100 mAh batteries.
Absolutely insane.

Anyway, AccuBattery reports 2100 mAh after a charge from 2% to 100%. Lowest voltage was 3.2V and highest was 4.235V. In my opinion, this makes absolutely no sense. The PolarCell Z5 Compact battery has a maximum rated voltage of 4.4V. But if the BMS were simply limiting the battery voltage to 4.2V, we should at least get like 2500 mAh, which we don't.

I have absolutely no idea what is going on and I am damn soon to give up.
At this point, there are two routes I should take:
  1. Measure the voltage at the battery terminals, to check whether or not the BMS reports correct voltage; (EDIT 28th of September 2022: the voltage is correct - measured with multimeter at battery terminals)
  2. Use the BMS provided by PolarCell and retry the charging process.

If it's of any relevance, while disassembling the LIP1648ERPC, I found out Murata's model number for this battery: Murata US395189BH7. It's printed behind Sony's protective film.

EDIT: Oh my goodness.
This PDF here with a full datasheet of the US395189BH7 mentions the fact that the battery should stop charging at 4.4V. At 4.2V, we should indeed be getting like 75% of the full battery capacity, while the battery should keep being charged even after it reaches 4.4V, albeit with the current dropping exponentially.
But, a small detail to be noted, the datasheet is fairly recent: 2020. Normally, such datasheet should be from around 2017.
Which indicates that this datasheet is not for the original revision of the battery, but for the 2nd revision, the one we are getting today.

We know the initial battery revision had a 4.2V limit, instead of a 4.4V one. Lucky us, Sony recycles the BMS boards and uses them in newer batteries without reprogramming them to limit the battery voltage to 4.4V instead of 4.2V.

So, Sony is screwing us over badly. And not just us. Themselves too.


EDIT 2: I attached the US395189BH7 datasheet below, just in case it ever "goes away".
 

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burtallicus

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so my memory of never seeing more then 2540000 uAH in Service Menu even when the phone was new is not just in my head.

1308-1851 .2 this the code on the rounded.com battery .... so i guess .2 means rev2 and the manufacture date is 2020.


after 2 charges ACCu say :

in charhing tab , estimated bat: 2370mAh
in health tab , estimate bat: 2356mAH and health 87%

Service menu say : 2382000 uAH ....slight increase from the original 234500
 
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antoniu200

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I retested the PolarCell Z5 Compact battery using their BMS instead of Sony's. The results were the same across the board: 2100 mAh.

It's pretty clear the issue is inside the phone: something inside prevents the battery from charging after it reaches 4.2V. At 4.2V, you can see in the datasheet above that the expected capacity is 75% of 2700 mAh, which is around 2000 mAh.

It's got nothing to do with the BMS boards being recycled. It's simply to do with the fact that Sony are ordering batteries from Murata that are incompatible with the products they are producing.
And they are probably doing this on purpose, since the same has been observed by @Haldi4803 : https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/...testing-fiddling-with-the-xperia-xz2.3798999/

Only the original revision of this part was fully compatible with the phone: 2700 mAh at a charging process that begins at 3.2V and goes up to 4.2V.

I will see if PolarCell accepts the US395189BH7 in for its BMS PCB. They would probably also require an actual phone to document that 4.2V limit for themselves. Will report back on this one.

But at this point, my testing is done, with the result that no battery exists for this phone.
 

burtallicus

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2012
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Bucharest
What do you mean original rev?...you say batteries in the initial batches of the phone? Meaning produced in 2017 or when the phone was released?

I put the original batt back and yeah accubat say 4.2v on full and is labeled as 2018 as production date.

That is some nifty trick from sony capping the bat...but...also explains how the original battery is still fairly good after 4 years of use...it never really charged full? I still get 5-6 hours sot on the original battery....for the replacement see above.

So...we need to find a 2017 bat to get the controller from it and transplant it? Or maybe is a smart controler and it cuts the charging by time passed...for example....1year pass cut the charge with x% 2 years..cut more %? Reaching to this 4.2v limit?
 

antoniu200

Senior Member
Oct 3, 2016
117
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What do you mean original rev?...you say batteries in the initial batches of the phone? Meaning produced in 2017 or when the phone was released?

Yes, the first rev, 1308-1851.1 instead of 1308-1851.2.
Produced before 2020, most likely.

I put the original batt back and yeah accubat say 4.2v on full and is labeled as 2018 as production date.

That is some nifty trick from sony capping the bat...but...also explains how the original battery is still fairly good after 4 years of use...it never really charged full? I still get 5-6 hours sot on the original battery....for the replacement see above.

That trick is most likely called "Qnovo Adaptive Charging". It would be confirmed if somebody here that owns a Z5 Compact can let us know whether or not their battery stops charging at 4.2V.

So...we need to find a 2017 bat to get the controller from it and transplant it? Or maybe is a smart controler and it cuts the charging by time passed...for example....1year pass cut the charge with x% 2 years..cut more %? Reaching to this 4.2v limit?

No.
The issue is inside the phone. Qnovo is inside the phone.
If you read more carefully what I wrote above, you saw the results on both Battery Management controllers were the same. Which means this low charging voltage limit is not imposed by the BM controller, but by Qnovo's technology (needs confirmation, see above why).

Plus, the original revision battery controller is unchanged: LIP1648 PCB (if I can get a photo of this code, I will edit this post and attach it).

So, what we need is a new cell that achieves 2700 mAh on a charging (and discharging) process from 3.2V to 4.2V (and the other way around).
 

tonsofquestions

Senior Member
That trick is most likely called "Qnovo Adaptive Charging". It would be confirmed if somebody here that owns a Z5 Compact can let us know whether or not their battery stops charging at 4.2V.

I think I have an old Z5 Compact still.
What would I need to do to test and confirm?
If memory serves, though, the battery had a lot of charge cycles and was starting to not last as well - so I'm not sure if it's going to be an accurate benchmark.
 

antoniu200

Senior Member
Oct 3, 2016
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@burtallicus and I had a private conversation now regarding this battery. What is relevant is the fact that the original revision and the 2nd revision of the LIP1648ERPC use the same cell, so the same datasheet should apply to both.

In this case, I was wrong once again. The 4.4V that we see in the datasheet is the voltage the battery reaches in CCCV (Constant Current, Constant Voltage) charging conditions listed in the datasheet. Once the power supply is removed from the battery's terminals, there may very well be a drop in voltage from the 4.4V we see in the sheet to the 4.2V we see in AccuBattery (and multimeter).
We know Quick Charge does not apply a Constant Current during the charging procedure, rather it keeps dropping once 40% charge is reached.
It is possible that the combination of battery tech (Quick Charge + Qnovo) Sony used in this phone does not apply a Constant Voltage either. 5V is probably used until 90% charge is reached and then the voltage keeps dropping as well, so the battery can reach its full capacity without reaching its maximum voltage (this needs testing to confirm - will probably buy a USB charging meter).

I think I have an old Z5 Compact still.
What would I need to do to test and confirm?
If memory serves, though, the battery had a lot of charge cycles and was starting to not last as well - so I'm not sure if it's going to be an accurate benchmark.

Thank you!
As I said above, it doesn't matter how old your battery is, as long as it still works.
I would like to know the following: if you fully charge your battery (full charging cycle or not, irrelevant), what voltage does AccuBattery indicate?
 

burtallicus

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2012
254
34
Bucharest
if your xz1c is not the main phone and can be used for testing .... maybe we reset battery stats by wiping "Qnovo" partition with Flashtool not sure if this helps
 

antoniu200

Senior Member
Oct 3, 2016
117
24
Zalău
if your xz1c is not the main phone and can be used for testing .... maybe we reset battery stats by wiping "Qnovo" partition with Flashtool not sure if this helps

Tested, doesn't make a difference.
Please post here new things you find out that are of interest to this thread instead of writing to me as a DM.

regarding my Z5C when is battery full charged (100%) shows:
1st Z5C 4,231mV
2nd Z5C 4,285mV

I will give PolarCell a call to see what they think about that measurement I took with AccuBattery. I also have a Note9 PolarCell battery that does not reach 4000 mAh, but rather only 3300, so I got a good reason to give them a call.
I will also try a used Note9 battery (reported as 2700 mAh in AccuBattery, charging stopped at 4.2V as well) inside the XZ1 Compact, since it's compatible, from a voltage point of view. I am very curious to see the measurements.
 

tonsofquestions

Senior Member
Thank you!
As I said above, it doesn't matter how old your battery is, as long as it still works.
I would like to know the following: if you fully charge your battery (full charging cycle or not, irrelevant), what voltage does AccuBattery indicate?
Sorry for the delay here. I found the old phone, but realize I'm not too familiar with AccuBattery. Do I need to let it go for a few cycles for the information to be useful? Full charge or anywhere as long as it stops?

After charging it, I also realized that I have ACC installed, which seems to be configured to stop charging at 75%. Do I need to turn that off and re-charge to get a proper reading of the voltage you're interested in?
 

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  • 3
    Well, today I got another phone I can use until I manage to find all the components I need for my XZ1 Compact, which means I will be able to send mine in to PolarCell, if they agree, so to help them design a quality battery.

    Before this happens, the phone I got has like 1000 charging cycles on the battery, so I really need to change it. Since it's an iPhone and I want to evade the "Important message" crap, I will send the original battery to PolarCell to take the Battery Management chip out of and use it in their battery, in which time frame I will use the XZ1c, so me sending the XZ1c as a sample to PolarCell (and even asking if it's possible they send it back to me after they're done) will take a while.

    It's a long shot, I know. But I think it's worth it.

    For the interested, my XZ1 Compact is fully functional, but I do not like the quality of the screen I have bought as a replacement (colors are washed out compared to any quality LCD - even to my cheapo LG 18.5" TN monitor from 2011 - has 98% sRGB tho).
    3
    I retested the PolarCell Z5 Compact battery using their BMS instead of Sony's. The results were the same across the board: 2100 mAh.

    It's pretty clear the issue is inside the phone: something inside prevents the battery from charging after it reaches 4.2V. At 4.2V, you can see in the datasheet above that the expected capacity is 75% of 2700 mAh, which is around 2000 mAh.

    It's got nothing to do with the BMS boards being recycled. It's simply to do with the fact that Sony are ordering batteries from Murata that are incompatible with the products they are producing.
    And they are probably doing this on purpose, since the same has been observed by @Haldi4803 : https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/...testing-fiddling-with-the-xperia-xz2.3798999/

    Only the original revision of this part was fully compatible with the phone: 2700 mAh at a charging process that begins at 3.2V and goes up to 4.2V.

    I will see if PolarCell accepts the US395189BH7 in for its BMS PCB. They would probably also require an actual phone to document that 4.2V limit for themselves. Will report back on this one.

    But at this point, my testing is done, with the result that no battery exists for this phone.
    2
    Well, I took the LIP1648ERPC BMS and installed it to the Z5 Compact battery.

    I must say I am stunned. This bit of PCB manages to make two batteries that would both have at least 2700 mAh look and act like 2100 mAh batteries.
    Absolutely insane.

    Anyway, AccuBattery reports 2100 mAh after a charge from 2% to 100%. Lowest voltage was 3.2V and highest was 4.235V. In my opinion, this makes absolutely no sense. The PolarCell Z5 Compact battery has a maximum rated voltage of 4.4V. But if the BMS were simply limiting the battery voltage to 4.2V, we should at least get like 2500 mAh, which we don't.

    I have absolutely no idea what is going on and I am damn soon to give up.
    At this point, there are two routes I should take:
    1. Measure the voltage at the battery terminals, to check whether or not the BMS reports correct voltage; (EDIT 28th of September 2022: the voltage is correct - measured with multimeter at battery terminals)
    2. Use the BMS provided by PolarCell and retry the charging process.

    If it's of any relevance, while disassembling the LIP1648ERPC, I found out Murata's model number for this battery: Murata US395189BH7. It's printed behind Sony's protective film.

    EDIT: Oh my goodness.
    This PDF here with a full datasheet of the US395189BH7 mentions the fact that the battery should stop charging at 4.4V. At 4.2V, we should indeed be getting like 75% of the full battery capacity, while the battery should keep being charged even after it reaches 4.4V, albeit with the current dropping exponentially.
    But, a small detail to be noted, the datasheet is fairly recent: 2020. Normally, such datasheet should be from around 2017.
    Which indicates that this datasheet is not for the original revision of the battery, but for the 2nd revision, the one we are getting today.

    We know the initial battery revision had a 4.2V limit, instead of a 4.4V one. Lucky us, Sony recycles the BMS boards and uses them in newer batteries without reprogramming them to limit the battery voltage to 4.4V instead of 4.2V.

    So, Sony is screwing us over badly. And not just us. Themselves too.


    EDIT 2: I attached the US395189BH7 datasheet below, just in case it ever "goes away".
    2
    Phew. Another long delay, but I hadn't forgotten! I got stuck with a weird bootloop that needed fixing, along with some other nonsense, but the specifics don't really matter.

    For whatever reason, it was super hard for me to get all the way to 100%. Even after turning off the various charging limiter modules, it inched to 99% and then stayed there for _ages_. I'm not sure how/why it eventually got to 100. Probably wasn't great for the battery....

    Here are two different screenshots of it at 100%. I was confused, because one has a positive charge current, and the other negative.

    1666936630245.png
    1666936648902.png


    For comparison, here's one when it was less than 75%, and 95:
    1666936740604.png
    1666936873632.png


    A lot more current (as expected) but a similar voltage.

    I have a couple of screenshots of it at 99%, but I suspect they're less interesting. 4.2-4.3V, and ranging between 100-300 mA.

    Let me know if any other tests would be useful.
    1
    Hi!

    I have this XZ1 Compact from July of 2018.

    Back in August of 2020, I noticed that my phone's battery didn't last as much as it used to. The official Xperia Service app launchable from the phone app (#*#*7378423*#*#) reported 2400 mAh. I asked a repair shop how stocks on batteries were for this device. They said that stocks were fine, production was still going strong and I have nothing to worry about.

    Fast forward to December of 2021 and battery was down to ~2300 mAh and needed daily charge just from web browsing and light social media, compared to 2 days in 2020 and 3-4 in 2018. Decided to send it to the shop above to replace the battery.

    They replaced the battery, but the life was not significantly better. Quite the contrary, it seemed even worse. After a couple of days, I checked the battery using AccuBattery and the Xperia Service app: both reported around 2200 mAh.

    These days, I gave that shop the phone again. They replaced the battery yet again and gave me the box the new battery came in: they are working with ASWO and I found out that their batteries, while original, are made back in August of 2020 (coincidentally - judging by battery markers reported by ASWO: 20W32).

    Does anybody here have any recent success stories replacing this phone's battery? What were your results and what do you recommend I should do? I really want to keep this device as long as possible.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention the new battery doesn't seem to last any longer either. I just received the phone yesterday, I will report back with battery measurements once I have some definitive ones. For now, after one charge from 23% to 100%, I got a measurement of 2187 mAh in AccuBattery.