Question Major update released for Galaxy S23 series, improves camera

[chetszot]

Maybe you are shooting JPG in ExpertRAW that is bad but I never liked the JPG output of older Samsung phones neither... If someone wants to shot JPG, I like what Proshot can do for 12mpx much more and easier than GCAM.

For 1000 Eur we are paying to be beta testers of Samsung too...

I agree that the camera should be much more tunable specially for people shooting JPG, we should be able to put noise and sharpening to zero, and be able to do other configurations suited to get a palatable JPG output, and something I don't understand why they don't add bracketing...

I feel like there is some potential in Camera Assistant app. If Samsung wanted, I bet they could expose a lot more configurations there.

Actually, with medium smoothening it makes S23 photos really a LOT better and more natural looking but at the cost of even more detail loss. In the end it's still far from what S20 did out of the box, but it's nice to have any options besides GCam to make things better.

 

[ajarosz]

I feel like there is some potential in Camera Assistant app. If Samsung wanted, I bet they could expose a lot more configurations there.

Actually, with medium smoothening it makes S23 photos really a LOT better and more natural looking but at the cost of even more detail loss. In the end it's still far from what S20 did out of the box, but it's nice to have any options besides GCam to make things better.

Softness setting does not affect details per se. Detail level is same for all levels, just sharpenning of them is different. But I agree, that with medium set it is much, much better.

 

[chetszot]

Softness setting does not affect details per se. Detail level is same for all levels, just sharpenning of them is different. But I agree, that with medium set it is much, much better.

Well, in theory - yes, but the reality shows (GCam xD) that Samsung's processing eats tons of details.

Just compare any GCam shot with Samsung's stock one. The difference is very, very significant.

 

[ajarosz]

Well, in theory - yes, but the reality shows (GCam xD) that Samsung's processing eats tons of details.

Just compare any GCam shot with Samsung's stock one. The difference is very, very significant.

Well, yes, that is true. Samsung processing is a crap, and I use on gcam instead. But what I meant was, that between softness in Camera Assistant set to off and medium, there is no details per se difference. Difference is in sharpening applied to them, and that does not change detail level. It stays the same.

 

[chetszot]

Well, yes, that is true. Samsung processing is a crap, and I use on gcam instead. But what I meant was, that between softness in Camera Assistant set to off and medium, there is no details per se difference. Difference is in sharpening applied to them, and that does not change detail level. It stays the same.

Of course, 100% true. It looks as if there were less details, but they are here indeed, but less pronounced because of this smoothening. Still - 10 times worse than GCam.

 

[Xvipes]

Could you please share some more comparison photos with the afformentioned difference? I used gcam and I can hardly notice any difference but you guys say there is a huge one.

Also how do you mitigate the fact that gcam can't utilize different modes (portrait, slow-mo, panorama, etc)

 

[ajarosz]

Could you please share some more comparison photos with the afformentioned difference? I used gcam and I can hardly notice any difference but you guys say there is a huge one.

Also how do you mitigate the fact that gcam can't utilize different modes (portrait, slow-mo, panorama, etc)

You can check my post in this thread with comparisons between GCAM, ExpertRAW, and Camera App both 50 and 12 Mpix in a slightly worse light, JPGs (still did not have time to gather other results but eventually I will): https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/...-series-improves-camera.4570457/post-88386541
Also, I have uploaded all photos so that you can check them yourself.

And about other modes - I think that portrait and panorama are present in GCAM (I don't use them at all, as I find portrait modes too artificial for my taste, and I prefer to stitch panorama myself in e.g. LR), but the video for sure is not a strong part of it. If you don't shoot with a tripod for sure Samsung Camera App will be better than GCAM.
It is all matter of needs and personal preferences. GCAM for sure has different look than Samsung Camera or ExpertRAW.
I understand that some may prefer much punchier, with more contract and much more sharpening applied pictures, that are ready to put on Instagram or Facebook and looks more pop.
Others, like me, prefer a more natural look, with less processing, but with some more details available. I am just too used to look what my Sony A7 III produces, and many cameras before it. I think my work just made me not like that Samsung look, and maybe because of that, I pay attention to things, that for many are not important at all.
If you don't see the difference or that difference is too small for you that is fine. That only means that the stock app is enough for you and you will not benefit from GCAM.

 

[citytrader]

I did another test shots in VERY LOW LIGHT (forgot to add this before), I normalized all to 12mpx and downscaled 50mpx and 30mpx shots.

All cropped from 300% zoomed image

The best picture and colors are from Canon, I put it as a point of comparisson. I shot this kind of stuff because I can see texture and how it behaves in different shots, AI will have a difficult time in this kind of shots.

ExpertRAW as usual applies sharpening by default in RAWs

SMOOTHING removes detail in mid and high, is like Samsung process a sharpened picture and applies a kind of gaussian blur over it instead of getting the normal blur from the sensor because of the bayer...

With GCAM AGC I tried to modify the exposure compensation but seems it doesn't work properly, and not having a working histogram is a problem with this camera and it has the color rendition near to the Canon shot.

JPG from stock and ExpertRAW are really bad in this last firmware.

Histogram in ExperRAW below 1s doesn't work anymore, its bugged.

STOCK NO SMOOTING

STOCK MID SMOOTHING

STOCK HIGH SMOOTHING

GCAM AGC v7

EXPERTRAW JPG

EXPERTRAW LONGER EXPOSURE SHOT

EXPERTRAW 50mpx downscaled no sharpening

CANON M6mkII downscaled

 

[citytrader]

Examples in good light of the selfie camera... really horrible camera. (The Canon downsampled shot for comparison in same light conditions)​

STOCK

EXPERTRAW JPG

EXPERTRAW SELFIE RAW

GCAM AGC v7

CANON

 

[chetszot]

@citytrader

Please find my comparison shots from my old S20 and new Galaxy S23.
All shots are on auto, default settings without scene optimizer. No Camera Assistant tweaks have been applied.

Please find my comments below:

Scene 01 (x1 lens):
No eyes hurting oversharpening to the tree, grass and distant trees on S20. Subtle shadows on the building have absolute zero noise (S23 produces unpleasant noise to any darker area). Colors on S20 are indeed saturated, but not OVERsaturated like S23's.

Scene 02 (x1 lens):
Again no eyes hurting oversharpening - look at the leafs of the plants. They don't have that unpleasant whitenish tint from too aggressive oversharpening. Buildings are not overexposed on S20. Sky color is very, very accurate on S20 (S23 is a complete miss).

Scene 03 (x3 lens - this is biggest surprise to me):
Better defined objects on S20, bigger magnification (I was not aware that), the furthest objects are a bit better visible on S20.

Scene 04 (x1 lens indoor):
Better colors on S20. Not overexposed animals. Better, more gentle wall color. Absolute zero noise on S20. Fake enhanced floor appearance on S23 + ugly noise on it. Overexposed and overcontrasty calendar photo on S23. I feel like in this photo I would expect to have the exact opposite outcome.

Scene 05 (x2 magnification indoor):
This is like comparing two devices from different decade of mobile photography. Whole S23 photo has tons of noise and is oversharpened, overexposed, oversaturated and overcontrasted. Also a lot of details are lost on S23. Sad and pathethic.

Scene 06 (x3 lens indoor):
Mixture of scene 04 and 05 to me. S20 is winner again.

I didn't have way to take some comparison night time photos, but believe me - the outcome and results are the same if not even more prominent.

Without the night mode, S23 photos have TONS of noise, they are unusable to me. They might resolve more details, but this is useless given the amount of the noise.
With night mode enabled S20 photos are just outstanding and S23 is again like decade ago to my taste. Better details, no oversharpening and no object halos. S23 tend to produce weird halo effect on the edges of every object being backgrounded by the dark sky or wall.

S23 camera is really, really bad and a lot worse than S20. Not what I expect from 1000 EUR phone being 3 generations more recent.

 

[ajarosz]

@citytrader

Please find my comparison shots from my old S20 and new Galaxy S23.
All shots are on auto, default settings without scene optimizer. No Camera Assistant tweaks have been applied.

Please find my comments below:

Scene 01 (x1 lens):
No eyes hurting oversharpening to the tree, grass and distant trees on S20. Subtle shadows on the building have absolute zero noise (S23 produces unpleasant noise to any darker area). Colors on S20 are indeed saturated, but not OVERsaturated like S23's.

Scene 02 (x1 lens):
Again no eyes hurting oversharpening - look at the leafs of the plants. They don't have that unpleasant whitenish tint from too aggressive oversharpening. Buildings are not overexposed on S20. Sky color is very, very accurate on S20 (S23 is a complete miss).

Scene 03 (x3 lens - this is biggest surprise to me):
Better defined objects on S20, bigger magnification (I was not aware that), the furthest objects are a bit better visible on S20.

Scene 04 (x1 lens indoor):
Better colors on S20. Not overexposed animals. Better, more gentle wall color. Absolute zero noise on S20. Fake enhanced floor appearance on S23 + ugly noise on it. Overexposed and overcontrasty calendar photo on S23. I feel like in this photo I would expect to have the exact opposite outcome.

Scene 05 (x2 magnification indoor):
This is like comparing two devices from different decade of mobile photography. Whole S23 photo has tons of noise and is oversharpened, overexposed, oversaturated and overcontrasted. Also a lot of details are lost on S23. Sad and pathethic.

Scene 06 (x3 lens indoor):
Mixture of scene 04 and 05 to me. S20 is winner again.

I didn't have way to take some comparison night time photos, but believe me - the outcome and results are the same if not even more prominent.

Without the night mode, S23 photos have TONS of noise, they are unusable to me. They might resolve more details, but this is useless given the amount of the noise.
With night mode enabled S20 photos are just outstanding and S23 is again like decade ago to my taste. Better details, no oversharpening and no object halos. S23 tend to produce weird halo effect on the edges of every object being backgrounded by the dark sky or wall.

S23 camera is really, really bad and a lot worse than S20. Not what I expect from 1000 EUR phone being 3 generations more recent.

I have to say, I am shocked. Except for Scene 03, where I think that s23 might be in some things better, S20 here is a clear winner. I don't care how long S23U is on the market, and we should get updates, which should get better with time. If they need more time to improve it, they should start development earlier.

 

[Fl1nt91]

The only reason to buy s23 is the possibility to use gcam and blow away any comparison with ****ty Samsung processing

 

[citytrader]

JPG out of this phone is trash at the moment.

@citytrader

Please find my comparison shots from my old S20 and new Galaxy S23.
All shots are on auto, default settings without scene optimizer. No Camera Assistant tweaks have been applied.

Thanks for your comparison, very interesting, something I saw from your picture besides the bad S23 jpg results overall are two things, the details in the shadows are much better in S23 than S20, I cleaned up the noise in PS and the result was much better than S20, the glass in the S20 is worse towards the edge (does not resolve well 12mpx), much worse compared to the S23.

There is no doubt that the JPG output of S23 is trash because of the bad software (even the RAW is sharpened, unbelievable this) and we are paying a premium for a subpar software product on the camera department at the moment, let see how much will improve with the updates in this beta testing period of S23...

 

[ajarosz]

JPG out of this phone is trash at the moment.

Thanks for your comparison, very interesting, something I saw from your picture besides the bad S23 jpg results overall are two things, the details in the shadows are much better in S23 than S20, I cleaned up the noise in PS and the result was much better than S20, the glass in the S20 is worse towards the edge (does not resolve well 12mpx), much worse compared to the S23.

There is no doubt that the JPG output of S23 is trash because of the bad software (even the RAW is sharpened, unbelievable this) and we are paying a premium for a subpar software product on the camera department at the moment, let see how much will improve with the updates in this beta testing period of S23...

I would say not much, but sure, they are better in the S23. But at the cost of the rest of the picture.
Left S20, right S23. S23 is just bad.

 

[chetszot]

JPG out of this phone is trash at the moment.

Thanks for your comparison, very interesting, something I saw from your picture besides the bad S23 jpg results overall are two things, the details in the shadows are much better in S23 than S20, I cleaned up the noise in PS and the result was much better than S20, the glass in the S20 is worse towards the edge (does not resolve well 12mpx), much worse compared to the S23.

There is no doubt that the JPG output of S23 is trash because of the bad software (even the RAW is sharpened, unbelievable this) and we are paying a premium for a subpar software product on the camera department at the moment, let see how much will improve with the updates in this beta testing period of S23...

I totally agree with you. S23 hardware is clearly better than S20's. There's no doubt about it and GCam perfectly proves that. That's why I am that disappointed, because I truly feel like the device has big potential just killed by Samsung's laziness / lack of competence. Or deliberately work to make next year's S24 "better" - I've read that opinion somewhere and seeing how bad S23 is given its relatively good hardware, I started to believe that.

Thank you guys for your opinions about my tests, I truly appreciate that . I'm considering to provide the exact same samples to Samsung and see their reaction. I hope they won't downgrade S20's camera next update but fix S23 instead . Although I've lost my faith they're going to improve S23.

 

[CarlosLopezES]

I totally agree with you. S23 hardware is clearly better than S20's. There's no doubt about it and GCam perfectly proves that. That's why I am that disappointed, because I truly feel like the device has big potential just killed by Samsung's laziness / lack of competence. Or deliberately work to make next year's S24 "better" - I've read that opinion somewhere and seeing how bad S23 is given its relatively good hardware, I started to believe that.

Thank you guys for your opinions about my tests, I truly appreciate that . I'm considering to provide the exact same samples to Samsung and see their reaction. I hope they won't downgrade S20's camera next update but fix S23 instead . Although I've lost my faith they're going to improve S23.

HW it's better but SW it's very important too. Pixel 5 with the old 12Mpx sensor was better than new 50Mpx sensor on Pixel 6 for many months until Google optimised it.

We now have a 200Mpx sensor on first generation... too many mpx for a small sensor, and probably Samsung it's struggling to get it well done. However, many reviews only talk about the king of photography, so... I don't understand anymore.

Gcam it's good but it's hit and miss too...

 

[chetszot]

HW it's better but SW it's very important too. Pixel 5 with the old 12Mpx sensor was better than new 50Mpx sensor on Pixel 6 for many months until Google optimised it.

We now have a 200Mpx sensor on first generation... too many mpx for a small sensor, and probably Samsung it's struggling to get it well done. However, many reviews only talk about the king of photography, so... I don't understand anymore.

Gcam it's good but it's hit and miss too...

Since S23 I really stopped reading any reviews online nor Youtubers. Either they are just paid by Samsung or they are blind and have really no idea about the (mobile) photography at all. Whole S23 series is praised literally everywhere about how good the camera reportedly is. We can see reality in the above pictures xD.

And GCam is good, is awesome, is better than stock, but its experience is far from good on daily basis usage. I've mentioned it earlier but it's slow, we cannot launch it from the lock screen, photo preview doesn't work and videos are worse. It's not good experience when you have to switch between the apps to take shots / record videos because the default system software is just bad.

 

[citytrader]

I would say not much, but sure, they are better in the S23. But at the cost of the rest of the picture.
Left S20, right S23. S23 is just bad.

I applied 4 stops of exposure to see the difference and Topaz denoising on the S23U picture , on the left S20 and on the right the S23U, on S20 denoising is hard that the details are lost and it has a kind of yellow vertical banding...

In the edges (left S20, right S23U) Considering the bad oversharpening of S23U

Here how bad the S23U (right) camera software is:

 

[citytrader]

Since S23 I really stopped reading any reviews online nor Youtubers. Either they are just paid by Samsung or they are blind and have really no idea about the (mobile) photography at all. Whole S23 series is praised literally everywhere about how good the camera reportedly is. We can see reality in the above pictures xD.

I agree with you, simply for getting a phone for free they can talk wonders of a bad product...

 

[chetszot]

I applied 4 stops of exposure to see the difference and Topaz denoising on the S23U picture , on the left S20 and on the right the S23U, on S20 denoising is hard that the details are lost and it has a kind of yellow vertical banding...

View attachment 5898533


In the edges (left S20, right S23U) Considering the bad oversharpening of S23U
View attachment 5898541



Here how bad the S23U (right) camera software is:

View attachment 5898547

Great analysis, thank you for that. What I hate most with this oversharpening artifacts is that green grass is whitenish and brown wood is also whitenish.

One correction to your post - the photos I posted are from vanilla S23. It's not Ultra, although I was comparing Ultra with my unit at local store and the processing is pretty much the same - with the same nonsense oversharpening.