Note 10+ Charging Data: 45W is a myth

Pilz

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Some brief observations using a Samsung 45w charger on my Note 10+ using a wall power meter.

From 5% battery to 20%, the power draw was 37w, so I suspect this to be doing 9V 4A. Then from here on to about 50% (where I gave up my test) the phone will continually modulate between 37W and 9W every 5-6% charge, with the 9W happening for about a minute. I suspect this to be thermals and during cool down its doing 9V 1A. I wish I had a power meter on the USB cable but unfortunately I don't.

So let's visit what my Samsung charger is to see if this makes sense... I have a EP-TA845 Travel Adaptor made in Vietnam. The included USB cable is marked 5A, so it should be good for 5Amp!

Here's the specs:

PDO: 5.0V - 3.0A, 9.0V - 3.0A, 15.0V - 3.0A, 20V - 2.25A

So it doesn't have any PDO for the 10V Note capability... So let's visit the PPS!

PPS: 3.3-11.0V - 4.05A, 3.3-16.0V - 2.8A, 3.3V-21.0V - 2.1A

The maximum capability the programmable power supply can possibly feed the phone is 11.0V 4.05A, but I suspect looking at my wall draw that it's likely doing 9V 4.05A give or take. There is no way the phone can command 4.5A at any voltage, let alone at 10V or even 9.

Is there another model charger out there perhaps that the Note needs to achieve the power draw?

I'm now keen to try charging ontop of an ice block to see if that aids in reducing the modulation :)
I included battery temps in mine to show you it's not throttling like that. The issue is we never see 45W, Samsung's 45W charger can output 45W but the phone will never pull that much power. I can throw mine on a block of ice and see but I know it won't matter that much (I guess I'll find out)
 
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dboyrusky01

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the most output I saw on official 45w was 37.5w, now my Powerpie Powerbank which is compatible with 45w charging put out 38.8w but that the moist I was able to observe..

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
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willhemmens

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Hey OP, did your "sources" or "connections" ever provide results to verify your findings? Did this ever get published as you were expecting?
 

Pilz

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Hey OP, did your "sources" or "connections" ever provide results to verify your findings? Did this ever get published as you were expecting?
I haven't heard back yet unfortunately. I am working with someone else to see if we can get this officially confirmed. Passmark makes a USB PD + PPS tester for $650, I wouldn't mind buying one if needed. I'm seeing if someone I know will test it so my wife won't get mad if I buy one to prove a point :cool:
 
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Pilz

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Are the first two graphs (45W1; 45W2) referring to the same data? If yes, then there's some problem with them :p

Also, if I'm still able to do the maths, in the first graph you hit ~43W.
Power [W] = Volts*Amps nowhere in the charging did it hit 43W
 

Collin80

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Nov 14, 2018
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As everyone (basically) has said, it is likely that thermal management will come into play here. Lithium batteries can be terribly sensitive to temperature. At the upper limits they quickly run away and nobody wants a bomb in their pocket. But, also, batteries work best at a slightly elevated temperature. Everyone who has ever driven an electric car in the dead of winter can attest to the sort of range and power lose you can be prone to. As such, I'd actually suspect that getting the phone too cold would also limit charge power. The ideal temperature of the battery is probably around body temperature which is perfect for something you carry around.

It is likely that the phone will not charge at 45w except in laboratory conditions. If you have a temperature controlled plate to put it on and you can tightly control the temperature of the phone and use the exact right charger with a perfect cord stretched out perfectly with no loops and the phase of the moon is right and the planets are aligned you probably can get 45w for a few seconds before the perfection fails and it go back down to the high 30s again. Note that this is all that is required for someone to claim it is possible. It only need be possible in the most perfect conditions. But, being able to get 35-38W charging sounds pretty good to me. That's close to the theoretical maximum. Nothing can push the maximums forever. Back to electric cars, you can't drive a Tesla pedal to the metal for long. It overheats. You can't drive it, super charge it, drive it hard, super charge it. It overheats. Sure, something like a Tesla *CAN* do 150KW/hr charging but not for an hour. It gets hot. Likewise, phone batteries get hot, the cord gets hot, the charger itself gets hot, parameters change, you can't expect perfection. The rated specs are the absolute maximum not something you should plan your life around.
 
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centaur31

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I think the main people to blame are the press, for the most part they believe and just repeat the marketing rubbish. They all made the claim that "the Note10+ has 45W charging" but none tested it. Ofcourse Samsung didn't do anything about this misinformation being spread but this is Samsung.

Samsung themselves never seem to have specifically stated the phone will charge at 45W. Looking at those marketing materials I think they covering their backs with the "up to" and where they are stating information "only refers to the Note10+", they are trying to show that the Note10 is not supported.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not on Samsung's side and I do think this is ****ty but I'm also pretty sure you're wasting your time.
Hi,
I just checked the links posted by the op and can surely verify that Samsung certainly made that claim and it was claimed to be one of the main features exclusive to the note 10+. They have stated that with this super fast 45 w charging capability the phone could be fully charged in 30 minutes.

If that can be done I won’t mind shelling out an extra grand on the 45 w charger as it means cutting down charging time by 50%. I have to say though when I initially got the note 10+ and saw it get to 8% late evening I set it to charge while still doing part of getting it to be my phone with my preferred apps etc.
I was very surprised to see it get to 100% as fast as it did and that brought a smile to my face every time because we all know bigger batteries mean longer screen and standby times but it also means much longer charging times but this one was a pleasant surprise but 30 minutes is way cooler.

Many friends, and seniors here must be aware of the Graphene battery which they got a patent on that goes from 0-100% in 12 minutes! They also said abs many other experts working on graphene tech have validated the fact that a graphene battery offers 4-5 times the ampere hours if made to the same size as a lithium ion in use because of the higher energy density it offers.
They have also adopted the Intel and other hardware makers’ strategy to release improvements slowly over a longer period instead of letting us use and benefit from the huge leaps that advanced and alternate technology allows devices to progress and transform.
A false claim is certainly an actionable claim for customers.. we should’v be thinking on the lines of “we can’t do anything about it”. We pay the prices they set which are surely unreasonable but we do that to get the latest and greatest in ideal circumstances we should be getting more than we paid for even if it is marginally more but not getting something that was one of the main features advertised is definitely not right. That’s my opinion and I appreciate the fact that not everyone may agree or disagree with me completely and am fine with that.
I’m always open to learn from the many good people on Xda who work so hard and give us these fabulous Ron’s and tools and methods to modify and even repair software bugs and glitches on our phones for free. Thanks for everything you all do. I have a question for all the people here but it is not with regard to this thread so I’ll post it in q&a. It is about Samsung and how they are playing us for fools in the smartphone market for one. Feedback and corrections are welcome. Edit: This is the q&a section, I meant to say a new topic. Lol.
 
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NaughtyJothi

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Easiest way to publicise i, contact 1 of those tech reviewers or tech website & send them your data. Ask them to test too? If its true it might b disturbing let alone false advertising?
 

blackhawk

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Jun 23, 2020
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I have connections at places since I used to write for a site. They have a PD tested to verify my findings and people who can do much more detailed testing. I have no reason to doubt the phone isn't pulling 45W based on charging times from multiple sources around the web. There's no way it can pull that current and only reduce charging time by a few minutes

a 13% reduction in charging time for a 44% increase in charging power is odd. Of course, these things don't scale linearly but there should be a larger gap between the two. I timed the phone with and without my tester and it gave me the same end result meaning the tester is showing accurate data for the power I am pulling which isn't 45W ever

Here's the charging data table



If you look at my post history, and reputation, I don't say these things lightly nor should I need to even mention that. I see the crowd has changed here over the years, perhaps for the worse.
Don't expect that much more from the 45 watt brick from all I've read.
For the 25 watt brick 2% @ minute is nominal till about the 90% mark. This is fairly fast charging.
Use a damp rag if the ambient air temp is above 95 F; charge rate will slow or even stop if the battery temp gets too warm.

Charges above 82% and especially >90% are undesirable as they greatly decrease battery lifespan.
I shoot for a 62-72% partial charge when it has discharged to 30-50%.
High temperatures plus a full charge degrades LI batteries the fastest and can cost you many hundreds of lost full charge cycles.
 
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Hung Start

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Aug 23, 2013
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I found this forum post when I discovered the same problem. The maximum charge I've been able to reach is [9.62V⎓3.78A] = 36.36W using a J5Create JUP44100. I have the 45W Samsung charger on order and will report back, but it sounds like this is a Samsung induced limitation. Very disappointing we're not getting what we paid for.

I also found the charge rate plummets when the screen is on at certain charge levels. I need to investigate further but if anyone knows the specific behavior that would be helpful.
 

blackhawk

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Jun 23, 2020
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I found this forum post when I discovered the same problem. The maximum charge I've been able to reach is [9.62V⎓3.78A] = 36.36W using a J5Create JUP44100. I have the 45W Samsung charger on order and will report back, but it sounds like this is a Samsung induced limitation. Very disappointing we're not getting what we paid for.

I also found the charge rate plummets when the screen is on at certain charge levels. I need to investigate further but if anyone knows the specific behavior that would be helpful.
36 watts is a lot for a Li cell this small. The idea is to control the cell charging temp to minimize degradation and prevent a runaway thermal reaction. Somewhere above 80-90% charge rate is decreased to protect the battery.
Somewhere below 60F or so fast charging is disabled to try to prevent Li plating.

For best life and fastest charging do this:
Limit most discharges to 40%
Don't go below 20% or above 90% as this stresses the cell needlessly.
High temp and cell voltage degrades the cell much faster than lower values.
Never attempt to charge if cell is close to 32F or below.
Avoid charging if cell temp is below 70F.
Stop charging if temp reaches 100F; in another few degrees it will auto shutdown anyway.
Ideal charge start temp is probably in the 75-85 F range.

Li's love frequent, small midrange charge cycles which can increase it's life by hundreds even thousands of full charge cycles.
From 40-65% is perfect. Over 2 hours of SOT and only 12 or so minutes to fast charge it back up.
Find and correct battery hogs; they needlessly waste power and battery life.
 

Hung Start

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Aug 23, 2013
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36 watts is a lot for a Li cell this small. The idea is to control the cell charging temp to minimize degradation and prevent a runaway thermal reaction. Somewhere above 80-90% charge rate is decreased to protect the battery.
Somewhere below 60F or so fast charging is disabled to try to prevent Li plating.

For best life and fastest charging do this:
Limit most discharges to 40%
Don't go below 20% or above 90% as this stresses the cell needlessly.
High temp and cell voltage degrades the cell much faster than lower values.
Never attempt to charge if cell is close to 32F or below.
Avoid charging if cell temp is below 70F.
Stop charging if temp reaches 100F; in another few degrees it will auto shutdown anyway.
Ideal charge start temp is probably in the 75-85 F range.

Li's love frequent, small midrange charge cycles which can increase it's life by hundreds even thousands of full charge cycles.
From 40-65% is perfect. Over 2 hours of SOT and only 12 or so minutes to fast charge it back up.
Find and correct battery hogs; they needlessly waste power and battery life.
I know how batteries work...

If they sold us a 35W charging phone there wouldn't be a problem. They specifically said 45W and sold a 45W charger to accomplish it, yet only achieved 36W.

36W is impressive, but it's significantly less than promised.
 
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blackhawk

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Jun 23, 2020
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I know how batteries work...

If they sold us a 35W charging phone there wouldn't be a problem. They specifically said 45W and sold a 45W charger to accomplish it, yet only achieved 36W.

36W is impressive, but it's significantly less than promised.
The 45 w brick is slightly faster than 25 w; I think it's about 10 minutes faster for a full charge cycle.
The biggest difference is in the 6-30% range but the difference narrows as the charge level climbs.
The overall difference isn't that great but the 45 w brick is faster.

It's not the brick wattage the limits the 45 w brick but 10's onboard controller; it maintains safe charging parameters throughout the charge cycle.
The top speed of the 25 w brick is 1% every 30 seconds, like clockwork when in its fast charge mode.
If it defaults to slow charge it's 1%@minute.
 

Hung Start

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Aug 23, 2013
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The 45 w brick is slightly faster than 25 w; I think it's about 10 minutes faster for a full charge cycle.
The biggest difference is in the 6-30% range but the difference narrows as the charge level climbs.
The overall difference isn't that great but the 45 w brick is faster.

It's not the brick wattage the limits the 45 w brick but 10's onboard controller; it maintains safe charging parameters throughout the charge cycle.
The top speed of the 25 w brick is 1% every 30 seconds, like clockwork when in its fast charge mode.
If it defaults to slow charge it's 1%@minute.
It doesn't appear that you are reading my posts. I know how they work, I know you're not going to get more than 25W for most of the charge, and I know that the maximum charge occurs at the lower end of battery SOC. I also know that it's not the charger's "fault". It's Samsung's fault because they advertised 45W charging and only delivered 36W.
 

blackhawk

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Jun 23, 2020
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It doesn't appear that you are reading my posts. I know how they work, I know you're not going to get more than 25W for most of the charge, and I know that the maximum charge occurs at the lower end of battery SOC. I also know that it's not the charger's "fault". It's Samsung's fault because they advertised 45W charging and only delivered 36W.
I wouldn't get too worked up over it. At some point in the charge curve under ideal circumstances it may use nearly 45 watts.
That's the problem with the need for speed; cars, bikes, women... the return curve starts rounding off at the top.
You get less bang for the buck at the high end.
Consider it future proofing for the next phone.
 

Hung Start

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Aug 23, 2013
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At some point in the charge curve under ideal circumstances it may use nearly 45 watts.
No, it never comes close to 45W in a 15C room.

If the Note 10+ charged at it's advertised rate, the 45W charger would be significantly faster then the 25W charger is shipped with.

You hopefully said it in jest, but considering Samsung's latest phones only support 25W, I'm not so sure about your "future proofing" quip either.
 

blackhawk

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Jun 23, 2020
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No, it never comes close to 45W in a 15C room.

If the Note 10+ charged at it's advertised rate, the 45W charger would be significantly faster then the 25W charger is shipped with.

You hopefully said it in jest, but considering Samsung's latest phones only support 25W, I'm not so sure about your "future proofing" quip either.
15°C is 59° F
At that temp fast charging may not even engage if so it will default to slow charging.
Try starting with a minimum battery temp of 80°F* The 80-95°F range seems to work best for this phone when fast charging.


*The centigrade scale's resolution sucks compared to farenheit scale for real life temp indexing.
Yeah, I know bad science... until you witness how much easier it is to use whole numbers in real life.
 

Hung Start

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Aug 23, 2013
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15°C is 59° F
At that temp fast charging may not even engage if so it will default to slow charging.
Try starting with a minimum battery temp of 80°F* The 80-95°F range seems to work best for this phone when fast charging.


*The centigrade scale's resolution sucks compared to farenheit scale for real life temp indexing.
Yeah, I know bad science... until you witness how much easier it is to use whole numbers in real life.
You're obviously a robot sent from Samsung to distract this thread. Fast charging is designed to work at room temperature.