Rule 12 - A New beginning

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Wuby986

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That is something you just have to get used to. It is the major draw with android.Once Google finishes locking android down you will see alot less of it due to no one being able to do anything with the OS but that is just the way it will be. Best advise would be to ad some code that will self corrupt the apk when it is built. I know many apps are doing this as are some developers are looking into doing this with their roms apks to prevent people from opening the apks.
well yeah v2 has it, but since we release opensource they someone could edit the way they prefer and/ or just not sign it for release and it would still be possible to recompile with apktool.. i know i have to get used and unfortunately i am, i was just a bit not confident this new rule won't have the expected result because people is still the same ? .. but we'll see.. at least is a starting point

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zelendel

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Aug 11, 2008
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well yeah v2 has it, but since we release opensource they someone could edit the way they prefer and/ or just not sign it for release and it would still be possible to recompile with apktool.. i know i have to get used and unfortunately i am, i was just a bit not confident this new rule won't have the expected result because people is still the same .. but we'll see.. at least is a starting point

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That like we said is just something you get used to. Best bet would just not to worry about it at that point. Open source is a double edge sword. There is a reason that only aosp is open and not all the rest. Open source while cool for tinkering it doesn't do much for security or rules put in place.
 
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Wuby986

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That like we said is just something you get used to. Best bet would just not to worry about it at that point. Open source is a double edge sword. There is a reason that only aosp is open and not all the rest. Open source while cool for tinkering it doesn't do much for security or rules put in place.
i'm not concerned by security or protecting the code.. it's open and free, i just think this is something you - as hosting site - should keep attention to because if the apktooled apk gets sued by GPL the hosting site gets as well.
we posted under gpl so one one could claim exclusivity of the code that we explicitly created for rom developers and so that anyone could use it

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zelendel

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i'm not concerned by security or protecting the code.. it's open and free, i just think this is something you - as hosting site - should keep attention to because if the apktooled apk gets sued by GPL the hosting site gets as well.
we posted under gpl so one one could claim exclusivity of the code that we explicitly created for rom developers and so that anyone could use it

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You make a few mistakes in your thoughts there. XDA does host anything. All downloads are off site. Also you do know what we do here right? Many things done here could get people in legal trouble. Heck users here redistribute copyrighted code left and right. Also being sued by the GPL crew is almost never gonna happen. There are only a few people that hold the rights and as they have said before , they really couldnt care less. IT is all about open software that people can use anyway they like. Too be honest with something like that Rom Control thing it really is not something to bee overly worried about. People will take it, change the code and claim it is theirs. It is just the way things are.
 
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Wuby986

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You make a few mistakes in your thoughts there. XDA does host anything. All downloads are off site. Also you do know what we do here right? Many things done here could get people in legal trouble. Heck users here redistribute copyrighted code left and right. Also being sued by the GPL crew is almost never gonna happen. There are only a few people that hold the rights and as they have said before , they really couldnt care less. IT is all about open software that people can use anyway they like. Too be honest with something like that Rom Control thing it really is not something to bee overly worried about. People will take it, change the code and claim it is theirs. It is just the way things are.
and you guys would be fine with it? because if is so i am leaving straight away ? not that i think you care actually ???
anyway what you said is quite a problem, because i know that for kernels instead you are very protective, and they are under same exact licence

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zelendel

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and you guys would be fine with it? because if is so i am leaving straight away ? not that i think you care actually ???
anyway what you said is quite a problem, because i know that for kernels instead you are very protective, and they are under same exact licence

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And how many devices are on the site that vilolate the gpl? A lot of them do. Mainly the devices based out of China like Xiaomi and others. All violate the gpl and yet are all still here. Look the project rom control is gonna attract just the type of users you are having trouble with really. Most people that are real developers already have their own control settings or use one of the many templates that are available.

Fine with what. Users redistributing copyrighted code? You do know that if people didnt break one license or another then your project would never exist right?
I mean just modding a device violates one license or another.

I dont not allow things in an imaginary world to effect my feelings so no I dont really care.
 
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Wuby986

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And how many devices are on the site that vilolate the gpl? A lot of them do. Mainly the devices based out of China like Xiaomi and others. All violate the gpl and yet are all still here. Look the project rom control is gonna attract just the type of users you are having trouble with really. Most people that are real developers already have their own control settings or use one of the many templates that are available.

Fine with what. Users redistributing copyrighted code? You do know that if people didnt break one license or another then your project would never exist right?
I mean just modding a device violates one license or another.

I dont not allow things in an imaginary world to effect my feelings so no I dont really care.
well i know that, i've been on this site long enough but still don't get it

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Darth

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and you guys would be fine with it? because if is so i am leaving straight away ? not that i think you care actually ???
anyway what you said is quite a problem, because i know that for kernels instead you are very protective, and they are under same exact licence

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You can simply use the report button if you see an issue and bring it to moderators attention, along with an explanation and/or evidence. Obviously we can't see all that happens on xda, we are few, and the threads and posts are many! We rely on our members to bring things to our attention. :good:

(the first example you linked to seems to be sorted between the members. As far as I saw?)

No need to derail this thread about it. :)
 

Wuby986

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Oct 18, 2013
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You can simply use the report button if you see an issue and bring it to moderators attention, along with an explanation and/or evidence. Obviously we can't see all that happens on xda, we are few, and the threads and posts are many! We rely on our members to bring things to our attention. :good:

(the first example you linked to seems to be sorted between the members. As far as I saw?)

No need to derail this thread about it. :)
i'm sorry you're right this might not be the place i just got caught in the discussion.. in fact i did once but report was closed and shared smali class from our project are still up ??? i can give you details in pm if you want to check

in the linked above is all solved, they guy understood

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Darth

Guest
i'm sorry you're right this might not be the place i just got caught in the discussion.. in fact i did once but report was closed and shared smali class from our project are still up ??? i can give you details in pm if you want to check

in the linked above is all solved, they guy understood

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Best to use report, again if needed, and let the mod team in your section handle it. If you aren't satisfied with the result, discuss it with the moderator who handles it. You can always hit up their team leaders, or any SM if you still aren't happy.

The staff list and sections is linked in my signature. :cowboy:
 
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sawdoctor

Guest
You make a few mistakes in your thoughts there. XDA does host anything. All downloads are off site. Also you do know what we do here right? Many things done here could get people in legal trouble. Heck users here redistribute copyrighted code left and right. Also being sued by the GPL crew is almost never gonna happen. There are only a few people that hold the rights and as they have said before , they really couldnt care less. IT is all about open software that people can use anyway they like. Too be honest with something like that Rom Control thing it really is not something to bee overly worried about. People will take it, change the code and claim it is theirs. It is just the way things are.

The rom control is one of the biggest issues on none LOS/AOSP roms. It is supposed to be opensource but people are not publishing their code or publishing fake code then they sell their PRO rom control app on either telegram or the playstore. I have spoken to both wubby and daxgirl about tackling this as xda should not be somewhere to come and make money, even worse they are doing it by selling something that is opensource.
There are several of us that really want to tackle the selling of paid rom control, ensuring the correct sources are published is at least the first step, if you can compile for free then people won't buy it
 

Wuby986

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Oct 18, 2013
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The rom control is one of the biggest issues on none LOS/AOSP roms. It is supposed to be opensource but people are not publishing their code or publishing fake code then they sell their PRO rom control app on either telegram or the playstore. I have spoken to both wubby and daxgirl about tackling this as xda should not be somewhere to come and make money, even worse they are doing it by selling something that is opensource.
There are several of us that really want to tackle the selling of paid rom control, ensuring the correct sources are published is at least the first step, if you can compile for free then people won't buy it
payed rc is another discussion at all since there several different type of selled apk like some unlock features and some are just for donate to developer because is same version as free one but as long as they release source for us and gnu gpl is all fine, but we already discussed it

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zelendel

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It is an endless battle. The nods here have been fighting it for at least a decade that I am personally aware of. Yet it is still here and as much as I hate it, it will not be going anywhere. There are really only 2 things that can be done.

1. Accept it and just deal the best you can.
2. Close the source. Which still doesn't always work as you have devs on this site that will revert engineer it and release it anyway.

If there is money to be made off of something people will take it and sell it. Heck one of the largest countries in the world make their whole economy off the idea of selling others ideas and work.
 
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egzthunder1

Admin Emeritus - Spirit of XDA
The rom control is one of the biggest issues on none LOS/AOSP roms. It is supposed to be opensource but people are not publishing their code or publishing fake code then they sell their PRO rom control app on either telegram or the playstore. I have spoken to both wubby and daxgirl about tackling this as xda should not be somewhere to come and make money, even worse they are doing it by selling something that is opensource.
There are several of us that really want to tackle the selling of paid rom control, ensuring the correct sources are published is at least the first step, if you can compile for free then people won't buy it

You are mixing two separate bits here:

1. Open source software CAN be sold, unless the license says otherwise. If someone adds features to a certain open source project and then decides to sell the base plus features as a paid version, most open source licenses will allow you to do that. Is it ethical to sell something that you didn't make from scratch? Probably no, but as zelendel said, that is one of the downsides of open source licensing.

2. Sources need to be updated and shared at all times. Fake updates or suddenly close sourcing them is a no no and not only is it an unethical thing to do, but it could potentially land you in legal trouble.

The change to the rule is an attempt to trying to protect the developers and their work more while trying to maintain the ability to teach and learn to younger or starting devs. It isn't a perfect solution... Hell, as zel said earlier, we have been going at this for a long time and I can guarantee you that there is no simple solution to this. All we can do is try and improve the current rules we have :)
 
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sawdoctor

Guest
You are mixing two separate bits here:

1. Open source software CAN be sold, unless the license says otherwise. If someone adds features to a certain open source project and then decides to sell the base plus features as a paid version, most open source licenses will allow you to do that. Is it ethical to sell something that you didn't make from scratch? Probably no, but as zelendel said, that is one of the downsides of open source licensing.

2. Sources need to be updated and shared at all times. Fake updates or suddenly close sourcing them is a no no and not only is it an unethical thing to do, but it could potentially land you in legal trouble.

The change to the rule is an attempt to trying to protect the developers and their work more while trying to maintain the ability to teach and learn to younger or starting devs. It isn't a perfect solution... Hell, as zel said earlier, we have been going at this for a long time and I can guarantee you that there is no simple solution to this. All we can do is try and improve the current rules we have :)

The point I was trying to make was too many people are using rom control as a way of selling their roms on XDA and I'm positive that is not what wubby and daxgirl wanted when they licensed it open source. It may be better to have this discussion in another thread now as we are derailing this one slightly
 

daxgirl

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2012
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Jerusalem
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It is an endless battle. The nods here have been fighting it for at least a decade that I am personally aware of. Yet it is still here and as much as I hate it, it will not be going anywhere. There are really only 2 things that can be done.

1. Accept it and just deal the best you can.
2. Close the source. Which still doesn't always work as you have devs on this site that will revert engineer it and release it anyway.

If there is money to be made off of something people will take it and sell it. Heck one of the largest countries in the world make their whole economy off the idea of selling others ideas and work.

Your responses were brought to my attention couple of days ago, but I needed to be... let's say "calmer" to respond to you. So here we go

So basically what you're saying is this:
You have in the past, you do now and we will in the future protect the "copyright" of "developers" who backdoor into a proprietary apk by using an illegal tool and make 3000 changes (let's say it's 3000 LINES... to be large with ya, you...) in a project (let's say samsung firmware for android devices), which originally contains billions of lines and call it their own. So you go into extensive investigations and close threads and you even made up a word for this shame, called "kanging". And you call those people developers and you protect their work from each other and you make sure they have asked permission of each other... and you make sure they have the credits... and so on. Then you take our project, which is purely from scratch, purely original development, built by us from A to Z, given to people of XDA with no demands for credits, permission asking or money (not ever, mind you...), while the only thing we asked of YOU as XDA representative, was to make sure people keep the honor of open source license, and all you have to say when people literally "S*H*I*T" on us and our work, when they disrespect us... all you have to say is "theives will be theives"

Our project works without root on any device and is in NO way comes to satisfy needs of apktool modders. We have given months of hard work without asking for single credit, permission begging or money, to help people grow in android debvelopment.

All you did with your replies here is show exactly why ignorance is bliss and, also, should be the name of XDA. We came here when it was a place to share knowledge. We are now surrounded by disrespectful, ignorant and petty little people like you. Telling us our only request for sharing the code means NOTHING to you. And that people will keep steeling (because.. h ow did you put that? "this forum is mostly about doing illegal things" and you will keep backing them up. People will keel ****ting on open source and you will keep allowing them.. because HEY, i GUESS BACKING UP HACKERS IN THEIR WAR ABOUT KANGING EACH OTHER"S KANGING, IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN SUPPORTING A SIMPLE REQUEST OF 2 OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPERS TO HONOR THE OPENNESS OF THEIR CODE.

You know how many times I have been approached to apply to xda RD? You know why never agreed? Because you grant this title to people who never wrote a line of code in their life. You grant it to people who hack other people's applications, make minor changes, call it their own and then fight over who took who's hack. And @Wuby986 and I don't need you to tell us you recognize us as developers. We ARE developers. And you ARE wrong in the way you view the code sharing issues.

Shame on you, really. If this is really what you think, you're not worthy to be among people who contribute and develop.

Sincerely, Dax, the co-author of Rom Control.

P.S. Don't bother replying or quoting. It was really rhetoric.
 
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    Good morning/evening,

    As discussed in the other thread we started regarding changes to our site, we promised that we would change things around a bit and one of them was the long standing Sharing Rule (also known as Rule 12). We have worked diligently with the administration and moderation teams to turn the one we had into something that would make developer's works a bit safer from stealing and other unsavory things.
    This thread is not meant as an announcement but rather as an open discussion platform so that you (the members/developers) can weigh in before we write it in the stone tablet along with the rest of them. This will be an open discussion regarding this topic only. Also, unlike the previous thread, which was more of a TownHall type of thread, this one WILL be moderated. In other words,

    * keep the thread on topic;
    * Unrelated posts will be removed;
    * Members not adhering to the above two will be disciplined.

    We look forward to having good, meaningful feedback from all of you (otherwise we would have added this to the rules like we always do). We want to have good, positive change into this community to make it into a pleasant atmosphere for all.

    Without further ado, I give you the beta draft of Rule 12

    Rule 12 - Sharing

    XDA-Developers is based on the principle of sharing to transmit knowledge. This is the cornerstone of our site. Our members and developers freely share their experience, knowledge, and finished works with the rest of the community to promote growth within the developer community, and to encourage those still learning to become better. There are those, however, who take advantage of this model and try to make personal gains from the hard work of others.

    In order to preserve the delicate balance between sharing for the good of the community and blatant self-promotion, regular members and developers alike must understand (and agree) to the following:

    12-1. Give credits where due - Credits and acknowledgements for using and releasing work which is based on someone else's work are an absolute must. Works reported to have no credits will be taken down until proper acknowledgements are added by the member in question;

    12-2. Courtesy - While most of the work released on our site falls under the umbrella of open source, that is not the only license model being used by developers on xda-developers. In order to prevent problems, we ask that if you decide to base your work on someone else's that you check the license model being used (as it might not be as permissive as one may think);

    12-3. Re-releasing other's works as your own is forbidden. The code that you release into the wild must have something beyond minor aesthetic changes that makes it better than the last. As this can be subjective, kang reports will be reviewed on a case by case basis. If you feel that your code has been kanged, please contact the Dev Relations team (listed below) if you cannot solve the issue amicably via PM. Please understand that you will be asked to provide evidence to substantiate your claim;

    12-4. Developers can issue take down requests (by contacting the Dev Relations team) under the following circumstances:

    - in-process builds start showing up on forums when the developer is not yet ready to release the work;
    - cases in which another developer is too aggressively soliciting donations or misrepresenting the work (kanging);
    - unofficial builds where an official build is already available;

    In summary, we want people to have access to work and knowledge alike. Sharing is good and courtesy and ethics go a long way.

    Developers with questions, comments, complaints, or concerns about our rules (or anything!) should send a PM to our Dev Relations team (efrant or sykopompos) or to a Moderator. We are here to help!

    Have at it!
    14
    looks good to me, no unofficial builds of officially supported devices is the icing on the cake :good: :highfive: :cool:
    Just to clarify that point, it only applies if the official build is already out.

    Scenario: A ROM team says they don't plan to support phone X because no one on the team owns it and is fine with someone else porting it. So, a non-affiliated developer ports the ROM, but a year later, a member of the official team gets phone X and wants to officially support it. At the point of the release of the official build, no other unofficial builds are allowed, but the original one is grandfathered in. It wouldn't be fair to that developer if his unofficial build that he worked on for the last year was shut down just because someone on the official team changed his mind on owning a device.

    Of course, the optimal solution would be for the ROM team to work with and pass on knowledge that helps the unofficial developer and maybe even include him on the team if his work is good.

    By the way, none of this is set in stone, so if anyone disagrees with the handling of the above scenario or anything in the revised rule, please provide feedback. We don't necessarily want to get too bogged down in minutiae, but we also want the rule to properly reflect what the community wants. Because in the end, XDA is the community and we are here to support each other.
    8
    Let's clarify, for all those developers that have no issue with unofficial builds, they can stay. This would only come into play for those developers who do not wish to allow unofficial builds. A suggestion would be to add that to your OP (many just use a C&P OP with specifics for the device being posted) if you don't want unofficial builds posted.

    We will not be removing unofficial builds just for the sake of removing them. The current procedure would be followed, where you would report the post using our Report post feature, making mention in the report that you do not allow unofficial builds of your work.
    yea thats what i figured, basically developers who allow unofficials can stay, and those who dont are now allowed to report for takedown

    Just to clarify that point, it only applies if the official build is already out.

    Scenario: A ROM team says they don't plan to support phone X because no one on the team owns it and is fine with someone else porting it. So, a non-affiliated developer ports the ROM, but a year later, a member of the official team gets phone X and wants to officially support it. At the point of the release of the official build, no other unofficial builds are allowed, but the original one is grandfathered in. It wouldn't be fair to that developer if his unofficial build that he worked on for the last year was shut down just because someone on the official team changed his mind on owning a device.

    Of course, the optimal solution would be for the ROM team to work with and pass on knowledge that helps the unofficial developer and maybe even include him on the team if his work is good.

    By the way, none of this is set in stone, so if anyone disagrees with the handling of the above scenario or anything in the revised rule, please provide feedback. We don't necessarily want to get too bogged down in minutiae, but we also want the rule to properly reflect what the community wants. Because in the end, XDA is the community and we are here to support each other.
    that seems fair enough and makes total sense
    8
    looks good to me, no unofficial builds of officially supported devices is the icing on the cake :good: :highfive: :cool:
    8
    looks good to me, no unofficial builds of officially supported devices is the icing on the cake :good: :highfive: :cool:

    Let's clarify, for all those developers that have no issue with unofficial builds, they can stay. This would only come into play for those developers who do not wish to allow unofficial builds. A suggestion would be to add that to your OP (many just use a C&P OP with specifics for the device being posted) if you don't want unofficial builds posted.

    We will not be removing unofficial builds just for the sake of removing them. The current procedure would be followed, where you would report the post using our Report post feature, making mention in the report that you do not allow unofficial builds of your work.
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