Rule 12 - A New beginning

Search This thread

zelendel

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2008
23,370
20,593
253
[/COLOR]

Your responses were brought to my attention couple of days ago, but I needed to be... let's say "calmer" to respond to you. So here we go

So basically what you're saying is this:
You have in the past, you do now and we will in the future protect the "copyright" of "developers" who backdoor into a proprietary apk by using an illegal tool and make 3000 changes (let's say it's 3000 LINES... to be large with ya, you...) in a project (let's say samsung firmware for android devices), which originally contains billions of lines and call it their own. So you go into extensive investigations and close threads and you even made up a word for this shame, called "kanging". And you call those people developers and you protect their work from each other and you make sure they have asked permission of each other... and you make sure they have the credits... and so on. Then you take our project, which is purely from scratch, purely original development, built by us from A to Z, given to people of XDA with no demands for credits, permission asking or money (not ever, mind you...), while the only thing we asked of YOU as XDA representative, was to make sure people keep the honor of open source license, and all you have to say when people literally "S*H*I*T" on us and our work, when they disrespect us... all you have to say is "theives will be theives"

Our project works without root on any device and is in NO way comes to satisfy needs of apktool modders. We have given months of hard work without asking for single credit, permission begging or money, to help people grow in android debvelopment.

All you did with your replies here is show exactly why ignorance is bliss and, also, should be the name of XDA. We came here when it was a place to share knowledge. We are now surrounded by disrespectful, ignorant and petty little people like you. Telling us our only request for sharing the code means NOTHING to you. And that people will keep steeling (because.. h ow did you put that? "this forum is mostly about doing illegal things" and you will keep backing them up. People will keel ****ting on open source and you will keep allowing them.. because HEY, i GUESS BACKING UP HACKERS IN THEIR WAR ABOUT KANGING EACH OTHER"S KANGING, IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN SUPPORTING A SIMPLE REQUEST OF 2 OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPERS TO HONOR THE OPENNESS OF THEIR CODE.

You know how many times I have been approached to apply to xda RD? You know why never agreed? Because you grant this title to people who never wrote a line of code in their life. You grant it to people who hack other people's applications, make minor changes, call it their own and then fight over who took who's hack. And @Wuby986 and I don't need you to tell us you recognize us as developers. We ARE developers. And you ARE wrong in the way you view the code sharing issues.

Shame on you, really. If this is really what you think, you're not worthy to be among people who contribute and develop.

Sincerely, Dax, the co-author of Rom Control.

P.S. Don't bother replying or quoting. It was really rhetoric.


First off. The RD thing is wasted in me. Titles mean less then nothing to me personally.

The bottom line is simple really. There will always be people out there that take someone else's work and calls it their own. This is not new as it has been said. You think you are the first this has happened to?

So people are using your code as a selling point to their roms in places like telegram and Facebook. That is not something we can do anything about. If you report a thread here then it is taken care of by the mod team. What happens outside xda is not xda problem.

Now there is a simple way for you to fix it yourself. Make the source private. Not ideal but it is the only 100% way to stop it. Other wise you are just getting upset over something that will never be stopped.

Do I like people that do it? No. Do I think it is fair? No. Doest it matter? Nope. It will not end.

One thing I do find funny is that you are complaining about people doing to your apk the same thing you do to Samsungs.

As for how long you have been around. Take a look. I have been fighting this same battle with it for almost a decade. So I feel your pain but I also see the reality of the subject. You do what you can and not sweat what you can't do anything about.
 

Wuby986

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2013
2,144
2,440
0
First off. The RD thing is wasted in me. Titles mean less then nothing to me personally.

The bottom line is simple really. There will always be people out there that take someone else's work and calls it their own. This is not new as it has been said. You think you are the first this has happened to?

So people are using your code as a selling point to their roms in places like telegram and Facebook. That is not something we can do anything about. If you report a thread here then it is taken care of by the mod team. What happens outside xda is not xda problem.

Now there is a simple way for you to fix it yourself. Make the source private. Not ideal but it is the only 100% way to stop it. Other wise you are just getting upset over something that will never be stopped.

Do I like people that do it? No. Do I think it is fair? No. Doest it matter? Nope. It will not end.

One thing I do find funny is that you are complaining about people doing to your apk the same thing you do to Samsungs.

As for how long you have been around. Take a look. I have been fighting this same battle with it for almost a decade. So I feel your pain but I also see the reality of the subject. You do what you can and not sweat what you can't do anything about.

the problem is we don't want to close the sources.. we specifically created open and gave to developer to adopt to their rom. now the point is that we only ask for it to be kept opensource, as per licence also, and this is what ahould make it beatifull..
anyway we are way out of topic now

Inviato dal mio SM-G930F utilizzando Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: daxgirl

zelendel

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2008
23,370
20,593
253
the problem is we don't want to close the sources.. we specifically created open and gave to developer to adopt to their rom. now the point is that we only ask for it to be kept opensource, as per licence also, and this is what ahould make it beatifull..
anyway we are way out of topic now

Inviato dal mio SM-G930F utilizzando Tapatalk

That is the thing. You want to control the uncontrollable. You cant control what other people do. No matter how many rules you put in place. Sure XDA could remove the threads here that do it if reported and proof provided but that will not stop it on other social medias. You would be amazed at how many different places you can get the same exact roms, mods ect just with names and authorships removed/changed. Just the way of the world.


Im betting I could find at least 10 versions of the app in question all different names and "authors" but its the same code, structure and syntax. Just an example.


Now XDA does what they can. But this is a problem with zero full solutions. The best you will get is you cut it down as best you can and let the rest slide.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sachin

Whiskey103

Senior Moderator / Member Advocate Admin / DC / RT
Staff member
Jun 6, 2009
10,012
20,442
268
44
Tell me, I’m lost . . .
www.whiskey103.nl
[/COLOR]

Your responses were brought to my attention couple of days ago, but I needed to be... let's say "calmer" to respond to you. So here we go

So basically what you're saying is this:
You have in the past, you do now and we will in the future protect the "copyright" of "developers" who backdoor into a proprietary apk by using an illegal tool and make 3000 changes (let's say it's 3000 LINES... to be large with ya, you...) in a project (let's say samsung firmware for android devices), which originally contains billions of lines and call it their own. So you go into extensive investigations and close threads and you even made up a word for this shame, called "kanging". And you call those people developers and you protect their work from each other and you make sure they have asked permission of each other... and you make sure they have the credits... and so on. Then you take our project, which is purely from scratch, purely original development, built by us from A to Z, given to people of XDA with no demands for credits, permission asking or money (not ever, mind you...), while the only thing we asked of YOU as XDA representative, was to make sure people keep the honor of open source license, and all you have to say when people literally "S*H*I*T" on us and our work, when they disrespect us... all you have to say is "theives will be theives"

Our project works without root on any device and is in NO way comes to satisfy needs of apktool modders. We have given months of hard work without asking for single credit, permission begging or money, to help people grow in android debvelopment.

All you did with your replies here is show exactly why ignorance is bliss and, also, should be the name of XDA. We came here when it was a place to share knowledge. We are now surrounded by disrespectful, ignorant and petty little people like you. Telling us our only request for sharing the code means NOTHING to you. And that people will keep steeling (because.. h ow did you put that? "this forum is mostly about doing illegal things" and you will keep backing them up. People will keel ****ting on open source and you will keep allowing them.. because HEY, i GUESS BACKING UP HACKERS IN THEIR WAR ABOUT KANGING EACH OTHER"S KANGING, IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN SUPPORTING A SIMPLE REQUEST OF 2 OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPERS TO HONOR THE OPENNESS OF THEIR CODE.

You know how many times I have been approached to apply to xda RD? You know why never agreed? Because you grant this title to people who never wrote a line of code in their life. You grant it to people who hack other people's applications, make minor changes, call it their own and then fight over who took who's hack. And @Wuby986 and I don't need you to tell us you recognize us as developers. We ARE developers. And you ARE wrong in the way you view the code sharing issues.

Shame on you, really. If this is really what you think, you're not worthy to be among people who contribute and develop.

Sincerely, Dax, the co-author of Rom Control.

P.S. Don't bother replying or quoting. It was really rhetoric.

Heya Dax,

I actually do reply because the last thing we want to see is unhappy developers ;)
In the past i offered to look into your case that obviously pains you, iirc Andy (sawdocter) reached out to you.
This offer still stands, if you would explain in detail what exactly is the problem and what you think we should do about it.

My door is always open and you know that, we crossed paths in the past so you know i will do anything (within my power) to help out.
For instance, i don't like it either that ppl are using your great project to sell ROMs off-site.
 
Last edited:

daxgirl

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2012
4,047
9,165
0
Jerusalem
First off. The RD thing is wasted in me. Titles mean less then nothing to me personally.

The bottom line is simple really. There will always be people out there that take someone else's work and calls it their own. This is not new as it has been said. You think you are the first this has happened to?

So people are using your code as a selling point to their roms in places like telegram and Facebook. That is not something we can do anything about. If you report a thread here then it is taken care of by the mod team. What happens outside xda is not xda problem.

Now there is a simple way for you to fix it yourself. Make the source private. Not ideal but it is the only 100% way to stop it. Other wise you are just getting upset over something that will never be stopped.

Do I like people that do it? No. Do I think it is fair? No. Doest it matter? Nope. It will not end.

One thing I do find funny is that you are complaining about people doing to your apk the same thing you do to Samsungs.

As for how long you have been around. Take a look. I have been fighting this same battle with it for almost a decade. So I feel your pain but I also see the reality of the subject. You do what you can and not sweat what you can't do anything about.

That is the thing. You want to control the uncontrollable. You cant control what other people do. No matter how many rules you put in place. Sure XDA could remove the threads here that do it if reported and proof provided but that will not stop it on other social medias. You would be amazed at how many different places you can get the same exact roms, mods ect just with names and authorships removed/changed. Just the way of the world.


Im betting I could find at least 10 versions of the app in question all different names and "authors" but its the same code, structure and syntax. Just an example.


Now XDA does what they can. But this is a problem with zero full solutions. The best you will get is you cut it down as best you can and let the rest slide.
So here is the thing... I think k you severely misunderstand what we ask of xda. After decade of dealing with the same crap over and over, I also understand it. So let's see..

1. I dint know what you think *I* do to Samsung roms. I personally owe 3 android devices. None of them even rooted. None of them have ever been rooted. And none of them had any custom binary installed. So I do nothing to Samsung. I am an Android developer. A native Android developer. And open source developer and member of free software foundation. That's all I do. To anyone. So if yiu want to accuse anyone of hypocrisy, pick up someone your own size. I am not in the same league. Even when I showed people anything in smali it was always my own code converted to smali to explain how to actually do development instead of hacking. And for all my smali files java source code is published. I did guides for modders in the past but stopped seeing how people lost all perspective in what they actually deal with.

2. We will never make our code proprietary. It's against everything this part of our lives stands for. We expect you to respect the gun public license. We expect you to close threads that don't provide source code. That's all we ask. Smali is not source code. We don't care what people do on other places. And what they share on telegram. We are taking here abiut you, abiut xda your integrity as a forum. Do you declare yourself as hackers forum? If so? I have no problem. We will remove our thread. But you don't! You claim to be developers forum (this is very funny... Btw). So as developers forum, respect and comply by public licenses for open source products. It's all very simple.

3. We don't care that people sell the rom control. We actually gave them permission. As long as source code is on listed on Google okay they can do what they want. This is what open source is really about.. Being open. Which is what with your Kang wars yiu have forgotten about 4 years ago.

4. If people want to hack, use apktool on rc on other sites and on telegram. Fine with me. Telegram is not a developers forum. YOU ARE!!!!!!!! So act like it. If someone publishes a rom which contains an app which is under gpl without providing sources, just close the thread. If people post smali code of app protected under gpl, smali code is not source code. Remove it.


How hard is it to understand that we don't care for anything else? Just make sure you don't allow people to use open source material without sources?



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

Heya Dax,

I actually do reply because the last thing we want to see is unhappy developers ;)
In the past i offered to look into your case that obviously pains you, iirc Andy (sawdocter) reached out to you.
This offer still stands, if you would explain in detail what exactly is the problem and what you think we should do about it.

My door is always open and you know that, we crossed paths in the past so you know i will do anything (within my power) to help out.
For instance, i don't like it either that ppl are using your great project to sell ROMs off-site.
With pleasure. We have alot to say as you can see. We are not unhappy developers. Just unhappy ok xda.
You sir are one of the greatest mods I ever had dealings with. Would be a pleasure to talk one day.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whiskey103

zelendel

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2008
23,370
20,593
253
So here is the thing... I think k you severely misunderstand what we ask of xda. After decade of dealing with the same crap over and over, I also understand it. So let's see..

1. I dint know what you think *I* do to Samsung roms. I personally owe 3 android devices. None of them even rooted. None of them have ever been rooted. And none of them had any custom binary installed. So I do nothing to Samsung. I am an Android developer. A native Android developer. And open source developer and member of free software foundation. That's all I do. To anyone. So if yiu want to accuse anyone of hypocrisy, pick up someone your own size. I am not in the same league. Even when I showed people anything in smali it was always my own code converted to smali to explain how to actually do development instead of hacking. And for all my smali files java source code is published. I did guides for modders in the past but stopped seeing how people lost all perspective in what they actually deal with.

2. We will never make our code proprietary. It's against everything this part of our lives stands for. We expect you to respect the gun public license. We expect you to close threads that don't provide source code. That's all we ask. Smali is not source code. We don't care what people do on other places. And what they share on telegram. We are taking here abiut you, abiut xda your integrity as a forum. Do you declare yourself as hackers forum? If so? I have no problem. We will remove our thread. But you don't! You claim to be developers forum (this is very funny... Btw). So as developers forum, respect and comply by public licenses for open source products. It's all very simple.

3. We don't care that people sell the rom control. We actually gave them permission. As long as source code is on listed on Google okay they can do what they want. This is what open source is really about.. Being open. Which is what with your Kang wars yiu have forgotten about 4 years ago.

4. If people want to hack, use apktool on rc on other sites and on telegram. Fine with me. Telegram is not a developers forum. YOU ARE!!!!!!!! So act like it. If someone publishes a rom which contains an app which is under gpl without providing sources, just close the thread. If people post smali code of app protected under gpl, smali code is not source code. Remove it.


How hard is it to understand that we don't care for anything else? Just make sure you don't allow people to use open source material without sources?



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------


With pleasure. We have alot to say as you can see. We are not unhappy developers. Just unhappy ok xda.
You sir are one of the greatest mods I ever had dealings with. Would be a pleasure to talk one day.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

You miss the fact that this is a Hacking and development forum. Only Since android has it been focused more on the development aspect but Hacking into things is what got XDA started and will alwsy be a part of it. I mean some of the biggest things on XDA are hacking into bootloaders and bypassing security. Hacking apks to work on device it wasnt meant to.

Now seems you and Whiskey have a good repor yet why have you guys not contacted him or any of the other mod team about it. The mods cant be everywhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fenny

_that

Recognized Developer / Recognized Contributor
Oct 2, 2012
4,817
4,205
243
If someone publishes a rom which contains an app which is under gpl without providing sources, just close the thread. If people post smali code of app protected under gpl, smali code is not source code. Remove it.

I'd even go further than closing the thread and demand that GPL violators comply with the license. And if they refuse, ban them.
 

jerdog

Admin Emeritus - Purveyor of word nuggets
May 17, 2007
8,169
7,154
253
Gallifrey
Ok - so I am going to step into this conversation here and say this @daxgirl - we absolutely respect all that you and your group/team have done for XDA, and really for the Community-at-large for quite a few years now. We have heard your complaints and concerns and will certainly address them - feel free to reach out to me, @Whiskey103, or any others who are active moderators who you feel have a vested interest in helping you, and development on XDA, be successful.
 
Last edited:

Top Liked Posts

  • There are no posts matching your filters.
  • 51
    Good morning/evening,

    As discussed in the other thread we started regarding changes to our site, we promised that we would change things around a bit and one of them was the long standing Sharing Rule (also known as Rule 12). We have worked diligently with the administration and moderation teams to turn the one we had into something that would make developer's works a bit safer from stealing and other unsavory things.
    This thread is not meant as an announcement but rather as an open discussion platform so that you (the members/developers) can weigh in before we write it in the stone tablet along with the rest of them. This will be an open discussion regarding this topic only. Also, unlike the previous thread, which was more of a TownHall type of thread, this one WILL be moderated. In other words,

    * keep the thread on topic;
    * Unrelated posts will be removed;
    * Members not adhering to the above two will be disciplined.

    We look forward to having good, meaningful feedback from all of you (otherwise we would have added this to the rules like we always do). We want to have good, positive change into this community to make it into a pleasant atmosphere for all.

    Without further ado, I give you the beta draft of Rule 12

    Rule 12 - Sharing

    XDA-Developers is based on the principle of sharing to transmit knowledge. This is the cornerstone of our site. Our members and developers freely share their experience, knowledge, and finished works with the rest of the community to promote growth within the developer community, and to encourage those still learning to become better. There are those, however, who take advantage of this model and try to make personal gains from the hard work of others.

    In order to preserve the delicate balance between sharing for the good of the community and blatant self-promotion, regular members and developers alike must understand (and agree) to the following:

    12-1. Give credits where due - Credits and acknowledgements for using and releasing work which is based on someone else's work are an absolute must. Works reported to have no credits will be taken down until proper acknowledgements are added by the member in question;

    12-2. Courtesy - While most of the work released on our site falls under the umbrella of open source, that is not the only license model being used by developers on xda-developers. In order to prevent problems, we ask that if you decide to base your work on someone else's that you check the license model being used (as it might not be as permissive as one may think);

    12-3. Re-releasing other's works as your own is forbidden. The code that you release into the wild must have something beyond minor aesthetic changes that makes it better than the last. As this can be subjective, kang reports will be reviewed on a case by case basis. If you feel that your code has been kanged, please contact the Dev Relations team (listed below) if you cannot solve the issue amicably via PM. Please understand that you will be asked to provide evidence to substantiate your claim;

    12-4. Developers can issue take down requests (by contacting the Dev Relations team) under the following circumstances:

    - in-process builds start showing up on forums when the developer is not yet ready to release the work;
    - cases in which another developer is too aggressively soliciting donations or misrepresenting the work (kanging);
    - unofficial builds where an official build is already available;

    In summary, we want people to have access to work and knowledge alike. Sharing is good and courtesy and ethics go a long way.

    Developers with questions, comments, complaints, or concerns about our rules (or anything!) should send a PM to our Dev Relations team (efrant or sykopompos) or to a Moderator. We are here to help!

    Have at it!
    14
    looks good to me, no unofficial builds of officially supported devices is the icing on the cake :good: :highfive: :cool:
    Just to clarify that point, it only applies if the official build is already out.

    Scenario: A ROM team says they don't plan to support phone X because no one on the team owns it and is fine with someone else porting it. So, a non-affiliated developer ports the ROM, but a year later, a member of the official team gets phone X and wants to officially support it. At the point of the release of the official build, no other unofficial builds are allowed, but the original one is grandfathered in. It wouldn't be fair to that developer if his unofficial build that he worked on for the last year was shut down just because someone on the official team changed his mind on owning a device.

    Of course, the optimal solution would be for the ROM team to work with and pass on knowledge that helps the unofficial developer and maybe even include him on the team if his work is good.

    By the way, none of this is set in stone, so if anyone disagrees with the handling of the above scenario or anything in the revised rule, please provide feedback. We don't necessarily want to get too bogged down in minutiae, but we also want the rule to properly reflect what the community wants. Because in the end, XDA is the community and we are here to support each other.
    8
    Let's clarify, for all those developers that have no issue with unofficial builds, they can stay. This would only come into play for those developers who do not wish to allow unofficial builds. A suggestion would be to add that to your OP (many just use a C&P OP with specifics for the device being posted) if you don't want unofficial builds posted.

    We will not be removing unofficial builds just for the sake of removing them. The current procedure would be followed, where you would report the post using our Report post feature, making mention in the report that you do not allow unofficial builds of your work.
    yea thats what i figured, basically developers who allow unofficials can stay, and those who dont are now allowed to report for takedown

    Just to clarify that point, it only applies if the official build is already out.

    Scenario: A ROM team says they don't plan to support phone X because no one on the team owns it and is fine with someone else porting it. So, a non-affiliated developer ports the ROM, but a year later, a member of the official team gets phone X and wants to officially support it. At the point of the release of the official build, no other unofficial builds are allowed, but the original one is grandfathered in. It wouldn't be fair to that developer if his unofficial build that he worked on for the last year was shut down just because someone on the official team changed his mind on owning a device.

    Of course, the optimal solution would be for the ROM team to work with and pass on knowledge that helps the unofficial developer and maybe even include him on the team if his work is good.

    By the way, none of this is set in stone, so if anyone disagrees with the handling of the above scenario or anything in the revised rule, please provide feedback. We don't necessarily want to get too bogged down in minutiae, but we also want the rule to properly reflect what the community wants. Because in the end, XDA is the community and we are here to support each other.
    that seems fair enough and makes total sense
    8
    looks good to me, no unofficial builds of officially supported devices is the icing on the cake :good: :highfive: :cool:
    8
    looks good to me, no unofficial builds of officially supported devices is the icing on the cake :good: :highfive: :cool:

    Let's clarify, for all those developers that have no issue with unofficial builds, they can stay. This would only come into play for those developers who do not wish to allow unofficial builds. A suggestion would be to add that to your OP (many just use a C&P OP with specifics for the device being posted) if you don't want unofficial builds posted.

    We will not be removing unofficial builds just for the sake of removing them. The current procedure would be followed, where you would report the post using our Report post feature, making mention in the report that you do not allow unofficial builds of your work.
Our Apps
Get our official app!
The best way to access XDA on your phone
Nav Gestures
Add swipe gestures to any Android
One Handed Mode
Eases uses one hand with your phone