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beserker15

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2009
636
408
Manual controls over the telephoto lenses are awesome. However sadly "RAW" here is used loosely since there's built in noise reduction that cannot be adjusted.

Top is "Expert RAW" DNG to JPG with just adjusting brightness. No noise reduction is applied and yet there is very little detail. Bottom picture is just stock camera night mode. More noise, but also more detail.
Screenshot_20211123-225202_Ditto - Photo Comparer.jpg
 

ski.ign

Member
Dec 27, 2018
32
56
I'm testing Expert RAW now and mus confirm, noise reduction exist even on DNG file. You suggest to use other app?
 

Randi03

Member
Oct 30, 2021
29
9
Right after downgrading to 11 I saw this post. Back to 12... Again and, yes, it's True. This is NOT pure RAW. I posted 3 photos down here so you can see what's going on. I apologize in advance for this long post but I wanted to show the actual view on the user's screen.

1st: Expert raw actually takes a RAW photo (notice the high chroma noise) but immediately processes it, to reduce the noise as seen with the yellow progress circle in the lower part of the screen.
PSX_20211124_204149.jpg
2nd: after processing, the photo looks like this
Screenshot_20211124-203456_Expert RAW.jpg

3rd: after opening the photo in Photoshop Express, it looks like this:
Screenshot_20211124-203537_Photoshop Express.jpg

To the untrained eye, this looks like such a great, clean image. But this is clearly, not RAW and it is not what users asked for.

Honestly, Samsung is frustrating. They give you the feeling that they are listening to their customers. We ask them for oranges and they give us watermellons. My theory is that they absolutely know they have mediocre sensors in their flagships and do not want to risk their image by letting you see the RAW capability of their camera.
 

ski.ign

Member
Dec 27, 2018
32
56
To the untrained eye, this looks like such a great, clean image. But this is clearly, not RAW and it is not what users asked for.

Honestly, Samsung is frustrating. They give you the feeling that they are listening to their customers. We ask them for oranges and they give us watermellons. My theory is that they absolutely know they have mediocre sensors in their flagships and do not want to risk their image by letting you see the RAW capability of their camera.
Sad but True. Higher ISO level = more agressive processing.
This example with some lightroom touches from x10 tele captured on ISO 50 but on tripod gimbal with 1/15s time.
Glad that they gave us full control at all, that's the most important thing, but they also had to give something back.
 

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ski.ign

Member
Dec 27, 2018
32
56
More examples with little lightroom postpro. All lenses and this time all captured from hand. Expert RAW creates multiple ammount of photos to some kind of HDR RAW. Anyway theare are much better than photos from standard camera app. Less processing but still exist.
 

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beserker15

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2009
636
408
Right after downgrading to 11 I saw this post. Back to 12... Again and, yes, it's True. This is NOT pure RAW. I posted 3 photos down here so you can see what's going on. I apologize in advance for this long post but I wanted to show the actual view on the user's screen.

1st: Expert raw actually takes a RAW photo (notice the high chroma noise) but immediately processes it, to reduce the noise as seen with the yellow progress circle in the lower part of the screen. View attachment 54668372nd: after processing, the photo looks like this
View attachment 5466841
3rd: after opening the photo in Photoshop Express, it looks like this:
View attachment 5466843
To the untrained eye, this looks like such a great, clean image. But this is clearly, not RAW and it is not what users asked for.

Honestly, Samsung is frustrating. They give you the feeling that they are listening to their customers. We ask them for oranges and they give us watermellons. My theory is that they absolutely know they have mediocre sensors in their flagships and do not want to risk their image by letting you see the RAW capability of their camera.
lol that's the thing though, the sensors aren't mediocre. Having a Snapdragon with access to telephoto RAW for a while now, I can definitely say that they're pretty good albeit a little soft and lack contrast. I think it's that Samsung's algorithm is still problematic and they are still catering to the common user who they think is scared of any signs of noise.

Here's a zoomed in picture of a 10x GCam RAW zoomed in with Photoshop Express without noise reduction
Screenshot_20211124-121512_Photoshop Express.jpg


And here's the Expert RAW version
Screenshot_20211124-121645_Photoshop Express.jpg
 
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PhilMorin

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2017
65
49
Expert raw seems to be the answer to apple's proraw or I can't remember the exact name. Basically it's 6 raw shots stacked together to help reduce the amount of noise and increase dynamic range over a single raw since these phones are usually meant to have lots of internal post precessing after the raw shot to look good. I was pretty excited when I read apple had come up with it. Turned out to be disappointing. Looks like Samsung's answer isn't better either.

It shows the difficulty of processing and stacking multiple images. I'll stick to my gcam with snap dragon as I'm super happy with it. 10x is by far my favorite lens to take portraits, never use the fake portrait mode, even in 3x it can't beat gcam 10x. Google processing is just that good. If pixel 6 pro had a 10x periscope I was probably switching phones... Will have to wait some more :)
 

yoyosquad

New member
Oct 4, 2021
3
0
Expert raw seems to be the answer to apple's proraw or I can't remember the exact name. Basically it's 6 raw shots stacked together to help reduce the amount of noise and increase dynamic range over a single raw since these phones are usually meant to have lots of internal post precessing after the raw shot to look good. I was pretty excited when I read apple had come up with it. Turned out to be disappointing. Looks like Samsung's answer isn't better either.

It shows the difficulty of processing and stacking multiple images. I'll stick to my gcam with snap dragon as I'm super happy with it. 10x is by far my favorite lens to take portraits, never use the fake portrait mode, even in 3x it can't beat gcam 10x. Google processing is just that good. If pixel 6 pro had a 10x periscope I was probably switching phones... Will have to wait some more :)
what GCAM mod are you using btw?
 

drzewoid

Member
Jun 17, 2018
42
16
Hello, i have question - how LOSELESS JPEG function works? Can You share some photos without editing it in external editors like lightroom? I'm interested how jpg from expert camera looks like.
 

Randi03

Member
Oct 30, 2021
29
9
Hi, I am not sure what you mean by lossless jpeg. I couldn't find a setting for this. Here you can find 6 JPEG photos. 3 with stock, 3 with expert. All settings (ISO, Exposure, Focus distance, White balance) should be exactly the same as I have manually selected them while keeping the phone on a tripod. Auto HDR was disabled too. https://we.tl/t-WSBZjBGaNB
Also, I am on the Exynos variant.
 

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  • 5
    FYI, just noticed the release of the Expert Raw app by Samsung, supporting all lenses for the S21 Ultra. Editing can be done through Adobe Lighthouse for Samsung.

    The app is release in South Korea, but als available through mirror sites.

    More info here
    5
    Right after downgrading to 11 I saw this post. Back to 12... Again and, yes, it's True. This is NOT pure RAW. I posted 3 photos down here so you can see what's going on. I apologize in advance for this long post but I wanted to show the actual view on the user's screen.

    1st: Expert raw actually takes a RAW photo (notice the high chroma noise) but immediately processes it, to reduce the noise as seen with the yellow progress circle in the lower part of the screen.
    PSX_20211124_204149.jpg
    2nd: after processing, the photo looks like this
    Screenshot_20211124-203456_Expert RAW.jpg

    3rd: after opening the photo in Photoshop Express, it looks like this:
    Screenshot_20211124-203537_Photoshop Express.jpg

    To the untrained eye, this looks like such a great, clean image. But this is clearly, not RAW and it is not what users asked for.

    Honestly, Samsung is frustrating. They give you the feeling that they are listening to their customers. We ask them for oranges and they give us watermellons. My theory is that they absolutely know they have mediocre sensors in their flagships and do not want to risk their image by letting you see the RAW capability of their camera.
    2
    More examples with little lightroom postpro. All lenses and this time all captured from hand. Expert RAW creates multiple ammount of photos to some kind of HDR RAW. Anyway theare are much better than photos from standard camera app. Less processing but still exist.
    1
    Right after downgrading to 11 I saw this post. Back to 12... Again and, yes, it's True. This is NOT pure RAW. I posted 3 photos down here so you can see what's going on. I apologize in advance for this long post but I wanted to show the actual view on the user's screen.

    1st: Expert raw actually takes a RAW photo (notice the high chroma noise) but immediately processes it, to reduce the noise as seen with the yellow progress circle in the lower part of the screen. View attachment 54668372nd: after processing, the photo looks like this
    View attachment 5466841
    3rd: after opening the photo in Photoshop Express, it looks like this:
    View attachment 5466843
    To the untrained eye, this looks like such a great, clean image. But this is clearly, not RAW and it is not what users asked for.

    Honestly, Samsung is frustrating. They give you the feeling that they are listening to their customers. We ask them for oranges and they give us watermellons. My theory is that they absolutely know they have mediocre sensors in their flagships and do not want to risk their image by letting you see the RAW capability of their camera.
    lol that's the thing though, the sensors aren't mediocre. Having a Snapdragon with access to telephoto RAW for a while now, I can definitely say that they're pretty good albeit a little soft and lack contrast. I think it's that Samsung's algorithm is still problematic and they are still catering to the common user who they think is scared of any signs of noise.

    Here's a zoomed in picture of a 10x GCam RAW zoomed in with Photoshop Express without noise reduction
    Screenshot_20211124-121512_Photoshop Express.jpg


    And here's the Expert RAW version
    Screenshot_20211124-121645_Photoshop Express.jpg
    1
    if that's not a problem, can you write us exact version of this release?
    Gcam build number is 8.1.101, might still be available from the links in beserker gcam for snapdragon thread