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Touch Pro performance

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DSF

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2007
1,344
218
mowned.com
Let's talk about the Touch Pro performance.

I will post some quotes.
Ok, so just to be fair I did some more testings on all three of my devices to find the optimal settings, here is the results:

Test performed on same video, with coreplayer 1.2.5, and optimal settings for each device:

Omnia:
Raw framebuffer: 442.74%

Universal:
Direct Draw: 165.28%

Touch Pro:
QTv display: 152.44%

Smooth Zoom and Dither turned off on each device!

So in conclusion, again Omnia wins by a huge 277.46% over the next best device that is the Universal. And even then the Universal is 12.84% better then the Touch Pro!

Please bare in mind that the Universal is a three years old device with only 64MB ram, while Touch pro is brand new and 288MB ram! They have same clock speed but Touch pro is supposed to have a better/newer chipset then the Universal!

There is no doubt in my mind anymore, Touch pro is missing the video drivers, or could it just be that qualcomm chipset just sucks?

poor directdraw, framebuffer/video performance. :mad: Just to make an idea: an old device from 2005 with omap 850 200mhz CPU performs better in this area than the touch pro @ qualcomm 528mhz. what a shame. The test were done in this topic (in romanian, sorry). CorePlayer was used for benchmark. I will summarize.
- HTC Tornado overclocked (262Mhz) max performance: 174.22%
- Touch Pro max performance: 172,67%
Both in Raw framebuffer mode. When used QTV it gains only 162,64%. How come?
It's pitty, 262Mhz from OMAP performs better than 528!!!Mhz from Qualcomm?!
The video used for tests is this one. (320x240 @ 25FPS)

So what do you think? Are the qualcomm chipsets just junk or we got poor drivers? Personally, I was hoping that HTC did learn something after the HTC TyTN II issues..

Another prove of sh*ty graphics on touch pro: Touch Pro landscape redraw issue (videos included)

Furthermore I would like to make some recommendations to see the true performance of touch pro:
- Rats!! http://clickgamer.com/download.htm?pvid=15358
- Ubulis TSE http://www.ionfx.com/product_windows_mobile_obulisTSE.htm (note the req: "200Mhz CPU or higher"
- Spore
- Prince of Persia HD
- Assasin Creed HD
- etc.

Wonderfull, the graphics are so fluid... NOT.
 
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NuShrike

Senior Recognized Developer
Sep 18, 2007
1,128
69
How about GL benchmarks between the iPhone, Kaiser, Raphael, and Toshiba G810 Portege?
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....ser)&D3=HTC Touch Pro&D4=Toshiba G810 Portege

A lot of it is the quality of HTC's drivers since the Portege does better, but the rest is Qualcomm's fault because even the Protege is inferior compared to an iPhone, N95, etc etc.

However, I cannot find a better phone that has a decent 3D chip on it, has at&t 3G, touch screen, and isn't NDA locked.
 

DSF

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2007
1,344
218
mowned.com
NuShrike, Touch Pro has a newer CPU that the one found on Toshiba G810 Portege, however, the benchmarks are still unsatisfying.

Here's some interesting information
Q: HTC, Qualcomm and the missing drivers—where do we send the angry mob with torches?

A: Qualcomm has a tiered pricing policy with their chipsets—so although you bought the chip, you have not bought all the features. So you have to pay additional fees per phone to get things like aGPS, graphic acceleration, etc.

In the past, HTC had no problems when using the older MSM-6500 chips (ARM9 processors) without drivers hence their reluctance to pay for any or additional support with the new MSM-7500 chips (ARM11 processors), especially since the newer processors were advertised to match or outperform the older generation.

Unfortunately, Qualcomm’s ARM11 performance does not match their previous ARM9 processor and is therefore, not quite as advertised. To get the proper performance out of the ARM11, one has to have knowledge of the processor’s implementation and design, but since that processor is not publicly available; the solution requires cooperation and assistance. HTC in this instance does not have this knowledge and is therefore unable to directly fix the problem, so they are put in a tough situation as they already have millions of these devices sold but they don’t want to pay Qualcomm more than they have to.
Full article: http://wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/qualcomm_htc_chipsets_and_feat.html

And here we've got a comparison between touch pro and dell axim v51v (a VGA PocketPC from year 2005).
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....whide=true&D1=HTC Touch Pro&D2=Dell Axim X51v
(I've bold the VGA because there are some users that are trying to find excuses of poor performance because of VGA resolution)
 
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NuShrike

Senior Recognized Developer
Sep 18, 2007
1,128
69
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices? :mad::mad::mad:
They probably make their hardware really cheap compared to other solutions.

There aren't many others (or at all) that package 3G WCDMA, asymmetric dual-core ARM11/ARM9, GPS, (WiFi?), BT?, and 3D GPU all into one at a pretty good power envelope.

The problem sounds like it's $$$ to access any of Q's advanced features, and they're not even that good.

Funny part is the CPU design was licensed from ARM in 2002 and is only hitting mainstream last year with the Kaiser/N95. However, it seems Qualcomm never licensed FPU capable ARM11 design, versus TI (N95 cpu) and Samsung (iPhone cpu) whom did.
 
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DSF

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2007
1,344
218
mowned.com
If the video issue was the only problem...

Sometime it really annoys me how poor can perform... When I was thinking to switch from my HTC Tornado (TI OMAP 850 CPU (180Mhz)) I was saying the performance difference must be enormous , but I find that those qualcomm CPUs are crap or the drivers sucks.. (but I tend to think it's the first variant). I really want that my device to perform well while listening to music, not to wait 1-2 sec for Start Menu to appear (atention, Start Menu, not Programs list, while scrolling in that list the things are so laggy, but that's a WM issue, so I pass. I've got a lot of apps installed)

I'm really dissapointed of crappy performance. My first and last qualcomm cpu-enabled device. If I know that before buying... but no one complains of this, all worship it (for eg, see gsmarena review).

An advice for interested people in buying Touch Pro: if you want a good device PASS touch pro.
It simply doesn't deserve it's price. It has a lot of super nice features (5 row qwerty, plenty of RAM, good amount of ROM, accelerometer, multiple sensors, good shape, superb VGA resolution, HSPDA, etc etc) but has soo many issues (low volume, crap speakerphone/earpiece, music gap, slider play, gps lag, poor directdraw performance, landscape redraw issue, poor overall system performance..)

I really expected way much more from a 2008 year device and especially from HTC!

BTW, I'm using a custom ROM (T.I.R V8), so no I'm not using the factory ROM

What I'm wondering is that just a few owners joined the topic.. so, I guess, that the performance of your touch pro doesn't bother you..
then, we shouldn't be surprised if HTC isn't interested. They think that we are happy with the performance of the device.

Edit: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf - see page 13. And that's MSM72000. We got MSM7201A chipset on Touch Pro (better). So in final may be HTC fault? I'm so confused
 
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Gav_

Member
Jun 27, 2007
27
0
Yep, have to agree the performance is abysmal. I heard HTC didn't want to pay some company for a proper graphics driver.... but thats just hearsay.

And have you seen the HTC HD? From the youtube videos I've watched ot goes like s**t off a shovel, seems they managed to get that thing working properly, if they'd only do an update for other devices.
 

DSF

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2007
1,344
218
mowned.com
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.

Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"

If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.

* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip

http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420

Is that fair..?

I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..

@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
 

djcaston

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2008
173
1
Mt. Laurel
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.

Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"

If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.

* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip

http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420

Is that fair..?

I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..

@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..

I totally TOTALLY agree. I mean how can we fix this? How much time is going to go by until the chipset can finally do what it should be able to do?
 

p51d007

Senior Member
Oct 15, 2007
2,192
372
Springfield, Mo
The only take I have on these devices, is that they are pretty much marketed as "business class" devices. Yeah, they will play video, but you know that if they market it as a "business" device, they probably won't do much. If they
marketed it as a gaming device, or video music player, it might be a different
story. They made a Swiss army knife, but it doesn't do any of them well.
I'm happy with my TP, but I don't listen to music or watch videos, other than once in a while a youtube. I have mine for receiving email, text messages & phone calls, which, if you could get an honest answer from HTC, is where they think the market is for these devices.
 

DSF

Senior Member
Apr 16, 2007
1,344
218
mowned.com
@djcaston only HTC & Qualcomm knows..

No idea how we can fix this, but we should do something (make this public, e-mail htc, publish on mobile news site, etc). The solution/answer SHOULD come from the companies mentioned above.

@p51d007 but the DIAMOND is marked as a "business class" device too? I don't think so.
Even as a business device is not working too good. Just try some powerpoint presentations, open a doc file and see how much time it takes to load.
So..

I've made more comparisons.

Quake III Arema

Nokia N82 - Symbian S60 QVGA
TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: PowerVR MBX
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0

Dell Axim x51v - WM VGA
Intel XScale PXA270 @ 624 MHz, chipset launched in 2004
Graphic: Intel 2700G5 Multimedia Accelerator
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuEGqYZNek

Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x8_wfWaYa_w
(the device in video is a touch pro)

SEGA Sonic 3 (Picodrive emulator)
Same emulator on both devices.
The hardware acceleration does not count as the last test includes Picodrive emulator that doesn't use HW acceleration at all. However, you can see that on SPV C600 the gameplay is smooth, something that we cannot say about the one on touch pro.

HTC Tornado (SPV C600)
TI OMAP 850 @ 200 MHz, overclocked at 252Mhz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: no Hardware Acceleration
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmUxwGBmMc

Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLD8OGFk8w
(the device in video is a touch pro)

As you see, touch pro is below EVERYTHING. A tehnology from year 2008 is so way behind a tehnology from 3-4 years ago. It's looks so anormally to me..

@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
 
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Ouzo

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2007
1,048
191
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
 

missingnoo

New member
Nov 29, 2008
4
1
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....

Just sent them an email myself. Hopefully enough people email them
so that we may get a proper update! Its ridiculous when I can barely run Quake 3 on this thing while my Viewsonic PPC runs it just fine!
And its not just about playing games either. The whole phone feels laggy..
Sorry to complain so much, but I paid good money for this thing.. :)
And I like the design so much, I dont wanna return it just yet....
 
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jamesd256

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2007
230
7
Coming from a Kaiser, and putting Elite RC1 on my Raphael, I was reasonably satisfied - until I got a G1.

Side by side is like pentium vs 486. My point being, they are running similar hardware, so I'm not sure the Qualcomm chipset is so crap after all.

I haven't seen any 3d accelerated stuff yet, but I know these devices are capable of great 3d gaming.
 

dr g

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2008
168
3
Indeed, as an Axim X50v owner I am dismayed at how immensely better it is in the graphics department, for a device so much older. HTC, Qualcomm or perhaps even a carrier needs to get off their hands and take care of the customers. Publicity may be one of the few tools we have, but I guess we might as well use it. Posting your displeasure here is as good an action as any, but take the time to comment or reply in any venue that you see these issues being discussed.

C'mon manufacturers/suppliers ... get those damn drivers out!
 

shadykw

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2005
73
0
i do agree.

i began to get frustrated with my TP that i started thinking of selling it, there are alot of things that arent going well at all in its preformance, and since the thread is about preformance in general i have a bad experience with my TP laginess. and GPS for example my wife bought a diamond a couple of days ago, and some how her Diamond gets a fix in less than 30 seconds, my TP takes considerably longer. the device is really really laggy, i sometimes wonder it recieved my click or not when i touch the screen. and its video preformance is extreemly poor. i mean i have an XDA flame and a toshiba g900, i thought the G900 is a crappy phone but it has GoForce 5500 chipset with some driver update its video is becomming amazingly fast and smooth.
what makes me angry lets say is that im a WM fanatic and the company where i work distributed iphones on all of us to use in our business tasks, it was a surprise to be honest that the Iphone took over this market really wiered, but after testing it for a while its much faster than the TP and it scores much higher in all tests with a massive diffrence, the only WM phone that came near the Iphone is the Samsung omnia, i think i already know why. both are samsung CPUs i tested the samsung omina of my friend and i think the Omnia is the WM version of the Iphone.
THough HTC is the bigger sister in the smart phone world but she is letting her clients badly down with crappy drivers and sometimes crappy PDs.

best regards
Kevin