No, if you brick your device, no need to open the device, no need to do the 'short test point action'. Yes, as suggested you might better scan this thread. You find the solution by yourself.
can you tell me
1-what files should i put in amonet/bin (arm folder or mtksu file).
2- where to find mtk-su to your /data/local/tmp folder.
thank you so much for your response
Last edited:
Please follow this guide:
sudo ./brick.sh
Brick preloader to continue via bootrom-exploit? (Type "YES" to continue)
YES
Bricking PL Header
Check instructions on device
target reported max download size of 114294784 bytes
Sending 'brick' (112090 KB)...
FAILED (data write failure (Cannot send after transport endpoint shutdown))
Finished. Total time: 62.362s
when i tried (sudo ./brick-8920.sh)
terminal say
no command found
is there any solution please
p.s I'm using ubuntu is it good or there is another linux distribution better
Brick preloader to continue via bootrom-exploit? (Type "YES" to continue)
YES
Bricking PL Header
Check instructions on device
target reported max download size of 114294784 bytes
Sending 'brick' (112090 KB)...
FAILED (data write failure (Cannot send after transport endpoint shutdown))
Finished. Total time: 62.362s
when i tried (sudo ./brick-8920.sh)
terminal say
no command found
is there any solution please
p.s I'm using ubuntu is it good or there is another linux distribution better
I have a kindle DH8 7th gen, which I use only once per year to help me fire a fireworks display. When I came to use it this year and charged it, it now hangs at the yellow Fire logo.
I'm new to any kind of android hacking, but I thought "how hard can it be to unbrick?". Well now I'm finding out!
I didn't enable USB Debugging in the fire when it was running OK. Boy do I regret that now.
Anyways, everything I've tried "soft-wise" to unbrick it has failed and it seems that is down to the fact that I can't flash anything to it as the bootloader is locked (not sure I'm using the right terminology, but be kind to me, I'm a newbie). I tried adb and fastboot via USB. ADB doesn't see the device. Fastboot will see it when the kindle is in fastboot mode, but I can't flash (or do anything) without being confronted with the message that it can't be done on a locked bootloader.
So I resorted to taking the back off and trying the bootrom-step.sh and shorting TP28 to ground.
But I'm getting nowhere with that either. I get "Waiting for bootrom", but no amount of attempts to short to ground and inserting the USB into my W10 laptop running an Ubunto app, gets me any further.
What am I doing wrong?
I'm new to any kind of android hacking, but I thought "how hard can it be to unbrick?". Well now I'm finding out!
I didn't enable USB Debugging in the fire when it was running OK. Boy do I regret that now.
Anyways, everything I've tried "soft-wise" to unbrick it has failed and it seems that is down to the fact that I can't flash anything to it as the bootloader is locked (not sure I'm using the right terminology, but be kind to me, I'm a newbie). I tried adb and fastboot via USB. ADB doesn't see the device. Fastboot will see it when the kindle is in fastboot mode, but I can't flash (or do anything) without being confronted with the message that it can't be done on a locked bootloader.
So I resorted to taking the back off and trying the bootrom-step.sh and shorting TP28 to ground.
But I'm getting nowhere with that either. I get "Waiting for bootrom", but no amount of attempts to short to ground and inserting the USB into my W10 laptop running an Ubunto app, gets me any further.
What am I doing wrong?
sudo ./brick.sh
[sudo] password for asus:
Brick preloader to continue via bootrom-exploit? (Type "YES" to continue)
YES
Bricking PL Header
Check instructions on device
target reported max download size of 114294784 bytes
Sending 'brick' (112090 KB)...
FAILED (data write failure (Cannot send after transport endpoint shutdown))
Finished. Total time: 60.406s
asus@asus-X553SA:~/Downloads/brick-douglas/amonet$ sudo ./brick-9820.sh
Brick preloader to continue via bootrom-exploit? (Type "YES" to continue)
YES
Bricking PL Header
Check instructions on device
< waiting for any device >
target reported max download size of 114294784 bytes
Sending 'brick' (111616 KB)...
OKAY [ 4.696s]
Writing 'brick'...
FAILED (status read failed (No such device))
Finished. Total time: 69.549s
and the devices reboots to system
any solution please
[sudo] password for asus:
Brick preloader to continue via bootrom-exploit? (Type "YES" to continue)
YES
Bricking PL Header
Check instructions on device
target reported max download size of 114294784 bytes
Sending 'brick' (112090 KB)...
FAILED (data write failure (Cannot send after transport endpoint shutdown))
Finished. Total time: 60.406s
asus@asus-X553SA:~/Downloads/brick-douglas/amonet$ sudo ./brick-9820.sh
Brick preloader to continue via bootrom-exploit? (Type "YES" to continue)
YES
Bricking PL Header
Check instructions on device
< waiting for any device >
target reported max download size of 114294784 bytes
Sending 'brick' (111616 KB)...
OKAY [ 4.696s]
Writing 'brick'...
FAILED (status read failed (No such device))
Finished. Total time: 69.549s
and the devices reboots to system
any solution please
Before you try hardware method (pin shorting method), what happens if you press VolDn+PWR buttons until you see the white amazon logo, then release both buttons? If you find menu that include bootloader reboot, then you can go to the fastboot mode. Is it possible on your tablet?
Edit: VolUP+PWR buttons. The button on the left-most, I mean.
Last edited:
Hi Korin67
Thanks for replying.
I can get to fastboot, using the key presses you suggest. I’d been doing this for a few days, whilst exploring adb and fastboot connections.
However, when I try to ADB, my PC cannot see any devices. Fast boot sees it and returns the serial number OK. I can send commands by fast boot but nothing that will allow me to flash anything, as it says the FW is locked. Presumably because I didn’t enable ADB in the settings from the Fire OS when the device was working.
I think you do not need ADB connection until you install TWRP. TWRP will be installed without ADB connection. What I meant is:
Set to fastboot mode -> brick your device -> apply bootrom-step.sh -> apply fastboot-step.sh
All should work without ADB connection. Actually when I did for my three douglas, I first enabled usb debug on. There is possibility that my suggestion might not work. Anyway, try it. It should be much easier than the hardware method.
I believe you already have read informative posts in this thread. That means you do NOT, for example, try to power on your bricked device.
Last edited:
Ok so, my tablet got bricked a few years ago and i didn't wanna open it to try to fix it, so In the i just put it inside a drawer and forgot.
The tablet got bricked because of a bad downgrade, it doesn't show anything on the screen, no charging, no logo no sound no nothing.
When I connect the tablet to a pc nothing happens either adb doesn't find it, now, if I hold the power button for about 10 to 15 seconds I hear the computer detects it (device manager sees it as Mt65xx Preloader) but a second or two after it makes the sound like it was disconnected ans the behavior can be repeated but it never stays.
I did try the steps but nothing happens and the tablet is never recognized. Any idea? Is it just dead? The battery worked perfectly when the tablet was in use and physically doesn't look like it died but well what do I know?.
The tablet got bricked because of a bad downgrade, it doesn't show anything on the screen, no charging, no logo no sound no nothing.
When I connect the tablet to a pc nothing happens either adb doesn't find it, now, if I hold the power button for about 10 to 15 seconds I hear the computer detects it (device manager sees it as Mt65xx Preloader) but a second or two after it makes the sound like it was disconnected ans the behavior can be repeated but it never stays.
I did try the steps but nothing happens and the tablet is never recognized. Any idea? Is it just dead? The battery worked perfectly when the tablet was in use and physically doesn't look like it died but well what do I know?.
If your device is really bricked (not dead), the script bootrom-step.sh might work. Otherwise, the hardware method might help. No more idea. Knowledgeable person might give better suggestion.
But my pc won't recognize the tablet nor show on adb, or does it need to be on Linux to work?
Since your tablet is bricked, it is normal pc does not recognize it. Try bootrom-step.sh. The script is written with python3. Python3 (plus serial module) should be installed in your pc.
Got wsl on windows to install Ubuntu and tried the bootrom-step.sh but nothing happened since
Nothing happens mean the script does not work? At least you find message "waiting for the device" or something like that on the screen. If you see waiting for the device, then plug the USB port to the tablet (connect to PC), then the script request you to type YES, then the data transfer starts. This is the normal procedure for this script. If not, I have no idea, sorry.
You're the first person I can recall trying this with WSL on Windows, but other people have had trouble trying to get these scripts to work on an emulated Linux.
The host operating system always need to do something to share the USB ports with the emulated OS, and it seems like this often confuses the scripts.
I've seen it happen at least a few times where people have trouble with these scripts when running an emulated version of Linux, and the problems go away when they run Linux (usually Ubuntu) natively by booting from a USB stick.
Ok so i could do it without the need to install it on the pc, straight from the usb stick? (not saying it will solve all my problems, but at least better chances?)
Similar threads
Top Liked Posts
-
There are no posts matching your filters.
-
61Read this whole guide before starting.
This is for the 7th gen Fire HD8 (douglas).
Current version: amonet-douglas-v1.2.zip
NOTE: This process does not require you to open your device, but should something go horribly wrong, be prepared to do so.
NOTE: This process will modify the partition-table (GPT) of your device.
NOTE: Your device will be reset to factory defaults (including internal storage) during this process.
What you need:
- A Linux installation or live-system
- A micro-USB cable
Install python3, PySerial, adb, fastboot dos2unix. For Debian/Ubuntu something like this should work:
Code:sudo apt update sudo add-apt-repository universe sudo apt install python3 python3-serial adb fastboot dos2unix
1. Extract the attached zip-file "amonet-douglas-v1.1.zip" and open a terminal in that directory.
NOTE: If you are already rooted, continue with the next step, otherwise get mtk-su by @diplomatic from here and place (the unpacked binary) into amonet/bin folder
2. Enable ADB in Developer Settings
3. Start the script:
Code:sudo ./step-1.sh
Your device will now reboot into recovery and perform a factory reset.
NOTE: If you are on a firmware newer than 5.6.4.0, a downgrade is necessary, this requires bricking the device temporarily. (The screen won't come on at all)
If you chose the brick option, you don't need to run step-2.sh below:
NOTE: When you are back at initial setup, you can skip registration by selecting a WiFi-Network, then pressing "Cancel" and then "Not Now"
NOTE: Make sure you re-enable ADB after Factory Reset.
4. Start the script:
Code:sudo ./step-2.sh
The exploit will now be flashed and your device will reboot into TWRP.
You can now install Magisk from there.
Going back to stock
Extract the attached zip-file "amonet-douglas-return-to-stock.zip" into the same folder where you extracted "amonet-douglas-v1.0.zip" and open a terminal in that directory.
You can go back to stock without restoring the original partition-table, so you can go back to unlocked without wiping data.
Just use hacked fastboot to
Code:sudo fastboot flash recovery bin/recovery.img
If you want to go back completely (including restoring your GPT):
Code:sudo ./return-to-stock.sh
Your device should reboot into Amazon Recovery. Use adb sideload to install stock image from there. (Make sure to use FireOS 5.6.4.0 or newer, otherwise you may brick your device)
Important information
In the new partitioning scheme your boot/recovery-images will be in boot_x/recovery_x respectively, while boot/recovery will hold the exploit.
TWRP takes care of remapping these for you, so installing zips/images from TWRP will work as expected.
Don't flash boot/recovery images from FireOS (FlashFire, MagiskManager etc.) (If you do anyway, make sure you flash them to boot_x/recovery_x)
Should you accidentally overwrite the wrong boot, but your TWRP is still working, rebooting into TWRP will fix that automatically.
TWRP will prevent updates from overwriting LK/Preloader/TZ, so generally installing an update should work without issues (only full updates, incremental updates won't work).
For ROM developers there is still an option to overwrite these, which should only be done after thorough testing and if needed (LK should never be updated).
It is still advised to disable OTA.
Very special thanks to @xyz` for making all this possible and putting up with the countless questions I have asked, helping me finish this.
Special thanks also to @diplomatic for his wonderfull mtk-su, allowing you to unlock without opening the device.
Thanks to @t0x1cSH and @breakfastofsecrets for testing.18Yesterday i managed to root updated FireOS and install Lineage 12.1, so, here's my story
Version 5.6.6.0 build 654620620,
on Linux KDE Neon.
- Installed python3, PySerial, adb, fastboot dos2unix as described in this and other posts.
Code:sudo apt update sudo add-apt-repository universe sudo apt install python3 python3-serial adb fastboot dos2unix - Downloaded the following attachments from the first post : amonet-douglas-v1.2.zip and brick-douglas.zip
- Extract both files to the same folder
- Enable Developer options and enable ADB (inside debugging options) on Amazon tablet
- Plug in the tablet (has to be turned on)
- Now comes the commands execution part. So, open the terminal in Linux (lines that start with // are comments and should not be run from command line - if you copy paste)
Code:sudo systemctl stop ModemManager && sudo systemctl disable ModemManagerCode:adb devices // there should be an item listed // to be sure, you can unplug and run it again, if it's empty, // ou know tablet can connect, so plug in the tablet backCode:adb reboot bootloader // reboots the tablet and awaits commandsCode:sudo ./brick.sh // type YES, hit enter // it will take a couple of minutes (around 3-5min in my case) // watch the tablet for success message, it should be displayed there if everything works // but also, watch your terminal...if it gives you error message similiar to: // ==> [I][U]failed with error message that it can't write somewhere[/U][/I] // you have to try with brick-9820 scriptCode:sudo ./brick-9820.sh // it will take a couple of minutes, similar to above step
NOTE : after either of the above commands (which one succeeds) POWER OFF THE TABLET and DO NOT try to turn it back on. It should stay powered off!!
Code:sudo ./bootrom-step.sh // this will take some time (in my case around 5-10 minutes) // will give you message similar to "awaiting device connection" and nothing else... // although nothing seems to happen, just wait a bit and watch the terminal, it will soon start displaying the process // it should then reboot the tablet, but in my case, that did not happen, so i had to do it manually... // NOTE that althought tablet seems to be "off", it isn't, so press power btn and hold for 5 sec to turn it off // after that click and hold volume up button (when in portrait mode it is the right one, the one closest to power btn) // and immediately after that press and hold the power btn until amazon logo shows itself // it should then show in bottom left corner HACKED FASTBOOT after a few seconds
Code:sudo fastboot devices // there should be a device listed // if not, you should run (in the extracted directory that you are in): ./bin/fastboot devices // if sudo fastboot devices does not show your device but ./bin/fastboot works, you have to edit the fastboot-step.sh file and change the fastboot commands to ./bin/fastbootCode:sudo ./fastboot-step.sh // takes a couple of minutes (1-3 min in my case) // reboots the device
after that you should be in TWRP
NOTE when in TWRP:
DO NOT RESTART tablet before the following
(or amazon fire os will overwrite TWRP and you will be reset to factory default with fireOS, losing everything you've done and starting from scratch...
when it happened to me, the brick-9820.sh didn't work anymore and had to use brick.sh script)
-allow modifications
-format data,system,cache partitions, go to wipe->advanced wipe-> repair/format (something like that), select each of the 3 partitions aformentioned and format to ext4
-if you've done it correctly, there should not be any red warnings
-after that go to wipe, select all partitions and wipe them (just to be sure)
-tablet should be connected and TWRP should be left on
on PC
-download Lineage 12.1 ROM from https://xdaforums.com/hd8-hd10/general/discussion-root-progress-fire-hd-8-t3743024
-download opengapps from https://opengapps.org/
- put them inside amonet-douglas-v1.2 folder where you've extracted the prior ZIP files (just to be clear, you can put them anywhere, but i like to keep it all inside the working directory)
-go to terminal
Code:adb push lineage-12.1-20200614-UNOFFICIAL-douglas.zip /sdcard adb push open_gapps-arm64-5.1-nano-20200624.zip /sdcard
now the files are on the tablet
- in TWRP go to INSTALL, go to /sdcard folder if not in it
- first install Lineage ROM from zip
- then install GApps from zip
hope it works!
I'm glad i've finally rooted it, thank you all for the great content here!13Wire root process
after updating my tablet to the latest version Fire OS 5.6.4.0 (build 636559820) which does not have SW root I have decided to open up the unit and use hardware method which works on all versions of firmware
What you will need
1. wire
2. plastic tool as in the picture below to open the unit.
3. linux machine, I used Raspberry Pi 3+ and Raspbian.
Process:
1. remove SD card from the fire HD to avoid breaking it during the opening process ( yes it happened to me, luckily just 16GB card )
2. use plastic tool to detach display from plastic rear chassis. It is very easy and safe process.
3. Remove 4 screws from the motherboard.
4. detach digitizer ( yellow ) cable and rear camera using plastic tool.
5. You can leave display flex cable, battery and speaker ( soldered ) connected.
6. turn montherboard on the other side so it lays on the battery. There is a small adhesive pad on the left side of PCA, use plastic tool to start lifting the board from that side.
7. find pad TP28 and prepare you Linux PC now
8. DOwnload amonet-douglas-v1.1.zip from OP of the thread , extract.
9. run, it will take a while to update your linux distribution to the latest version.
10. Get your self into the Amonet folder ( most licely Downloads/Amonet ) folder where you extracted ZIP from OP.Code:sudo apt update sudo add-apt-repository universe sudo apt install python3 python3-serial adb fastboot dos2unix
11. run
12. you should see this msg on the screenCode:sudo ./bootrom-step.sh
Code:[2019-02-07 14:35:59.478924] Waiting for bootrom
13 Now here is the tricky part which will require some practice. You have to short TP28 with grond ( the big pad neer TP28 ) and while doing it connect USB cable to the PC. Here is how I did it.
14. So I was holding the wire in the left hand and used right hand to plug slowly USB cable into the montherboard. ( not easy I know, but you will get there )
15. If you did it right you will see a message on the screen to Release the short wire and hit ENTER.
16. wait till the scripts does its think and when you see this you are in fasboot. Look at the scrren, you should see AMAZON logo and small text on the bottom "fastboot xyz etc..." Don1t unplug table, keep going.
17. run this scriptCode:[2019-02-07 12:11:05.621357] Reboot to unlocked fastboot.
18. Your unit should boot into TWRPCode:sudo ./fastboot-step.sh
19. Assemble back the unit so digitizer will work.
20 boot into TWRP and install Lieage, GAPPS and Magisk. Install Lineage ZIP file from here. https://xdaforums.com/hd8-hd10/orig-development/rom-lineage-12-1-t39536778@willgaj did you enter bootloader mode on the Fire ? Powerdown and then Press VolUp + Power, wait until you see "Enter Recovery" , then select "Bootloader".
Heres how it worked out for me:
Files I used:
amonet-douglas-v1.2.zip from first Page of this Thread:
https://xdaforums.com/attachments/amonet-douglas-v1-2-zip.4845269/
Unpack the Archive to a separate Folder.
brick-douglas.zip from first Page of this Thread:
https://xdaforums.com/attachments/brick-douglas-zip.4825253/
Unpack the Archive to a separate Folder.
MTK-su (i used te 64 bit) from here:
https://xdaforums.com/t/rapid-temporary-root-for-hd-8-hd-10.3904595/
Unpack and copy to the MTK-su from the 64 Bit folder to the “bin” folders of the previous unpacked folders.
Unlock steps:
- Reboot FireHD8 to Recovery (Power Off device, then hold VolUp + Power)
- Select Facotry Reset then Wipe Cache
- Reboot to Bootloader
- You will see the balck screen with “Fastboot” in the lower corner.
- Open Terminal from “brick-douglas” folder an enter “sudo ./brick.sh
” - Check Display output for the “Disconnect USB and Powerdown” Message and do so when prompted
(If theres an Error see below Step 12)
- Open Terminal from “amonet-douglas-v1.2” foder.
- Enter “sudo ./bootrom-step.sh"
- Reconnet USB
- Wait until the bootrom step is finished
- Enter “sudo ./fastboot-step.sh”
- You will end up in TWRP
If theres an error let the FireHD Reboot and do the “Apps and Data Optimization” at the Welcome Install Screen Powerdown the FireHD and enter Bootloader again.
- Open Terminal from “brick-douglas” folder
- Enter “sudo ./brick-8920.sh”
- Check Display output for the “Disconnect usb and powerdown” message and do so when prompted.
- Enter “sudo ./bootrom-step.sh
- Reconnet USB
- Wait until the bootrom step is finished.
- Enter “sudo ./fastboot-step.sh"
- You will end up in TWRP
Lineage OS installation:
Prepare a Micro SD Card with: Lineage OS (Search the forum for the douglas (FireHD 8 7.Gen) or suez (FireHD 10 7Gen) Version, Gapps (ARM64, 7.1, nano) and Magisk and insert in FireHD.
In TWRP Format Data and Wipe data, system, cache.
Install Rom, gapps and magisk
Reboot to Lineage OS
Hardware Method:
If you got stuck somewhere in the middle or the Exploit doesn’t work try the hardware method.
I somehow bricked my HD10 , I think I disconnected the USB because I was to unpatient.
For the Hardware method, you need to open the Tablet, use a prytool or a Creditcars / Knife to remove the backcover, just gently pry around the bezel until the screen pops out.
You need to unscrew the mainboard and gently flip it over , on the HD10 I didn’t had to remove any wire , just be carefull with the speakers and put a piece of cardboard or plastic on the back between the mainboard and battery so it will not shorten or puncture the battery.
Find the CLK pin (theres several pictures on the forum for your specific device) use a piece of wire or paperclip to shorten from a ground plane or the SD Card slot housing to the clock pin. This works best if you got someone that will help you.
- Connect USB to the Tablet, but leave it unplugged on the Computer side.
- Make sure the Tablet is powered down (Press and hold Power button for 30 seconds)
- Open Terminal from “amonet-douglas-v1.2” foder.
- Enter “sudo ./bootrom-step.sh”
- Now shorten CLK to ground and hold it.
- Ask a kind person to plug in the USB cable on the Computer now.
- The Terminal will tell you to remove the wire when ready.
- Press enter and wait for bootrom-step.sh to finish.
- If an error during bootrom step occurs , just retry
- After bootrom step is finished, enter “sudo ./fastboot-step.sh”
- You will end up in TWRP
PS: I directly installed LOS 14.1 on the HD8 , on the HD10 i i used LOS 12.1 because LOS 14.1 is missing Camera Support on the HD10 in fact loosing the camera shouldnt trouble too much as the picture quality is horrible anyways. As for now I am happy to have a running Android on the tabs and don´t need to worry amazon giving me headaches every few weeks when updating CrapOS and redndering my configuration unuseable , i got 14 HD8/10 deloyed around the house as input devices for Homeautomation (running Habpannel).
One thing to mention when switching to LOS, is that you can´t use apps that need to be certified anymore, like Netflix, Banking etc.
Good luck!
PPS: Thanks a lot to k4y0z and his fellas for the great job!
opec8Recently there was a sale on this Fire hd 8 gen 7 for $20 at Woot so I brought it so I tried to hack. It is hard to find a one with the firmware 5.6.4.0 or lower so this is how I got it to work. Honorable mention to Opec who actually got the instructions right so I modified his instructions a little to fit everything in.
A) amonet-douglas-v1.2.zip from first Page of this Thread:
https://xdaforums.com/...p.4845269/
Unpack the Archive to a separate Folder.
B) brick-douglas.zip from first Page of this Thread:
https://xdaforums.com/...p.4825253/
Unpack the Archive to a separate Folder.
1) Boot from a live version of linux (I used Ubuntu mate Lts 20.04) or you can install linux in your computer.
2) Run the following commands to install tools;
sudo apt update
sudo add-apt-repository universe
sudo apt install python3 python3-serial adb fastboot dos2unix
3) Disable modem manager
sudo systemctl stop ModemManager
sudo systemctl disable ModemManager
4) Reboot FireHD8 to Recovery (Power Off device, then hold VolUp + Power)
5) Select Factory Reset then Wipe Cache
6) Reboot to Bootloader. You will see the black screen with "Fastboot" in the lower corner.
7) Connect your usb cable to the tablet.
8) Open Terminal from "brick-douglas" folder an enter "sudo ./brick.sh (note that you are actually bricking your fire tablet in order to recover)
9) Check Display output for the "Disconnect USB and Powerdown" Message and do so when prompted. Proceed to step 10 if there no problems, but it didn't work for me.
*** Note if you see an error and the FireHD Reboot and do the "Apps and Data Optimization" at the Welcome Install Screen Powerdown the FireHD and enter Bootloader again.
a) repeat steps 4-7
b) Enter "sudo ./brick-8920.sh" instead of brick.sh
c) You should see Display output for the "Disconnect usb and powerdown" message and do so when prompted.
10) Open Terminal from "amonet-douglas-v1.2" foder.
11) Enter "sudo ./bootrom-step.sh"
12) Reconnect USB while your tablet is off.
13) Wait until the bootrom step is finished
14) Enter "sudo ./fastboot-step.sh"
15) You will end up in TWRP
16) Prepare a microsd card with Lineage OS 15.1 or 14.1 with the rom and gapps and install Lineage OS.
https://xdaforums.com/...1.4328503/
https://xdaforums.com/...1.4195349/
