Update on LG Official Pie Development

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tech_infinity

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Jun 16, 2014
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This will be my last LG phone I buy. The promise of faster updates after opening their so-called update center. We'll that's BS. Lucky to get a security update every 4 or so months. And they wonder why their wireless arm is failing.

In India they didn't give any update for about 8 months I think. It's just dumb how LG is giving so few updates
 

Emu

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Apr 5, 2013
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In India they didn't give any update for about 8 months I think. It's just dumb how LG is giving so few updates

I think there will definitely be a lawsuit because they joined Android Enterprise Recommended and promised security updates at least every 90 days for 3 years. Imagine if any other company did that with their product. We buy based on the premise that we will receive continued service. LG promised their software upgrade center to deliver. I mean they are doing something but it's coming at a massive delay and there is little appeal to getting the Android version from 1 year ago. There is little appeal when you see the new features that will come to Q later this year and you know that we might never see them.
 

tech_infinity

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I think there will definitely be a lawsuit because they joined Android Enterprise Recommended and promised security updates at least every 90 days for 3 years. Imagine if any other company did that with their product. We buy based on the premise that we will receive continued service. LG promised their software upgrade center to deliver. I mean they are doing something but it's coming at a massive delay and there is little appeal to getting the Android version from 1 year ago. There is little appeal when you see the new features that will come to Q later this year and you know that we might never see them.

That won't happen in India sadly :( and LG knows it.
They released updates for 930DS in other regions and left India out. It's just shameless, Indian Variant can use KDZ from these other regions without any issues so they could've just pushed the same update and just had to change the region name in settings nothing else. Still LG didn't and that is just messed up.
 
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Farukkk1903

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Jan 31, 2014
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That won't happen in India sadly :( and LG knows it.
They released updates for 930DS in other regions and left India out. It's just shameless, Indian Variant can use KDZ from these other regions without any issues so they could've just pushed the same update and just had to change the region name in settings nothing else. Still LG didn't and that is just messed up.
same thing happening in Turkey
model no H930G
in 2018 june phone updated to oreo v20b
and in 2019 may phone updated to v20d (1 april security patch)
 

tech_infinity

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Jun 16, 2014
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same thing happening in Turkey
model no H930G
in 2018 june phone updated to oreo v20b
and in 2019 may phone updated to v20d (1 april security patch)

Yeah. Stuff like this doesn't make any sense. If the LG updated for other regions and their kdz file works without any issues on our phone i.e. LG didn't have to do any additional development, why not release the update. :crying::(
 
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TheDannemand

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Feb 12, 2008
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I wonder if anyone could make a modified stock ROM on PIE with the DAC fix. That way no need for AOSP ROM like LOS or RR.

Yeah, that would be awesome!

In the case of Pie, I think one would have to dig some pieces out from Oreo and stick'em in the Pie in order to get everything working right again: I suspect the reason hardware MQA isn't working on Pie (at least on V40 et al) is because LG decided the percentage of audiophile users is too small to justify paying royalties to Meridian (the company behind MQA, which has a reputation for being greedy). Tidal and UAPP have their software MQA decoders (slightly inferior to the V30's hardware MQA, and more battery hungry) and both of which are certain to be paying their dues to Meridian. LG probably figured that they had been paying for everybody to have "free MQA", why not just let the few MQA users pay through their app vendors or streaming service.

I was hoping one of the ROM vendors would have taken an interest when I created that thread about Bypassing the Android Mixer to avoid re-sampling. But I think the number of users who care about audio fidelity is relatively small.
 
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br0adband

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Mar 28, 2008
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MQA is nothing more than audiophile snake oil, seriously - you'd be amazed at how many people don't even know it's actually a lossy compressed format when you get right down to it and no amount of BS "unfolding" is ever going to present it as the original sound. Go FLAC or go home, basically. :)

A lot of us do care about audio quality, and most of us know MQA is BS through and through but some folks just stick to it like it actually matters (hint: it doesn't).

If LG decided to drop support for it in Pie there's more than likely the monetary reason mentioned in the post above as the licensing fees are just stupid, really. Good riddance, I say.
 

TheDannemand

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Feb 12, 2008
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Go FLAC or go home, basically. :)

The benefits of MQA are indeed debatable. Not whether there ARE benefits, but whether they are as great as Bob Stuart claims. And whether they're worth the ransom he and Meridian demand.

But a quote like the above (comparing it to a container format) gives me the impression that you don't understand what MQA actually is and what it does.

How much MQA have you listened to? Do you know what the lossy aspect of it is? And do you know what it adds over lossless Redbook that makes it relevant?

Because it is NOT lossy like good old MP3 or AAC. And it sounds like that's what you're comparing it to.
 
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BROKEN1981

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Dec 27, 2013
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MQA is nothing more than audiophile snake oil, seriously - you'd be amazed at how many people don't even know it's actually a lossy compressed format when you get right down to it and no amount of BS "unfolding" is ever going to present it as the original sound. Go FLAC or go home, basically. :)

A lot of us do care about audio quality, and most of us know MQA is BS through and through but some folks just stick to it like it actually matters (hint: it doesn't).

If LG decided to drop support for it in Pie there's more than likely the monetary reason mentioned in the post above as the licensing fees are just stupid, really. Good riddance, I say.
MQA is in flac. I have files to prove it.

Sent from my LG-H932 using XDA Labs

---------- Post added at 04:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 AM ----------

The benefits of MQA are indeed debatable. Not whether there ARE benefits, but whether they are as great as Bob Stuart claims. And whether they're worth the ransom he and Meridian demand.

But a quote like the above (comparing it to a container format) gives me the impression that you don't understand what MQA actually is and what it does.

How much MQA have you listened to? Do you know what the lossy aspect of it is? And do you know what it adds over lossless Redbook that makes it relevant?

Because it is NOT lossy like good old MP3 or AAC. And it sounds like that's what you're comparing it to.
To bad we lost running. He could have made a PIE ROM for us

Sent from my LG-H932 using XDA Labs
 

br0adband

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Mar 28, 2008
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The benefits of MQA are indeed debatable. Not whether there ARE benefits, but whether they are as great as Bob Stuart claims. And whether they're worth the ransom he and Meridian demand.

But a quote like the above (comparing it to a container format) gives me the impression that you don't understand what MQA actually is and what it does.

How much MQA have you listened to? Do you know what the lossy aspect of it is? And do you know what it adds over lossless Redbook that makes it relevant?

Because it is NOT lossy like good old MP3 or AAC. And it sounds like that's what you're comparing it to.

I've been an audio engineer for 3+ decades so not that it matters to anyone else but, MQA is not lossless and yes I am very well versed on psychoacoustic audio compression and all the current and past technologies which make use of it. MQA is snake oil, seriously, and it is lossy by definition, and it loses quite a bit of the original audio material in the encoding process regardless of whatever math the creator of it spews out. He's been dismissed countless times by professional audio engineers and the math just proves that MQA is nothing special at all.

But if you folks tell yourselves you can hear a difference there's nobody else that will ever change your mind - that's something you have to learn to do on your own after you sort through all the BS marketing double-speak and fancy wording that makes it sound (pun intended) like it's actually a good thing.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/163302855-is-mqa-doa

MQA IS NOT LOSSLESS

Note that the original 24-bit signal is never recovered. MQA does not losslessly preserve the original 24-bit signal. For this reason MQA is not truly a lossless system. At best, the MQA system losslessly conveys 17-bits at 96 kHz. Unfortunately this very complicated process is less efficient than lossless FLAC compression of the 17-bit file. It is also only slightly smaller than a FLAC version of the original 24-bit signal. MQA does not make it easier to stream 96 kHz files. With a 96 kHz 18-bit input, FLAC compressed MQA requires higher data rates than FLAC compressed PCM while delivering lower quality than 18-bit losslessly compressed PCM. MQA also requires special mastering and special playback hardware. Conventional FLAC compression requires neither.

MQA is in flac. I have files to prove it.

The irony of your statement is the epitome of irony, as ironic as that might be. ;)
 
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usersky007

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Aug 1, 2007
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The sooner MQA dies the better. It's just lossy cvasi-drm ridden snakeoil, totally controlled by a company that lies, threates, refuses to discuss about any aspect not in their agenda. They invented a pretext to totally controll all the chain, from studio to your headphones and every single entity involved should pay to them. If you care about sound and about being able to still listen in 5 years what you buy today, go for an open lossless format. All that pseudo-mumbo-jumbo MQA tries to lie about solving is because "bandwidth and space constrains". Really, in 2019 not enough space and bandwidth but audiophile with such high standards and V30? And still eager to go lossy? Absurd scenario IMO. If you have V30 and you have high standards, go for lossless, as high as you think you are able to hear: go 192/24 but do it in an open-lossless format, not in a proprietary one that will make all the music you buy unlistenable in few years. Encouraging this trend will hurt yourself, others and the whole industry. If enough users would buy into this fake-magic, everyone would pay through their noses for Meridian being their favourite whore.
 
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TheDannemand

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Feb 12, 2008
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I've been an audio engineer for 3+ decades so not that it matters to anyone else but, MQA is not lossless and yes I am very well versed on psychoacoustic audio compression and all the current and past technologies which make use of it. MQA is snake oil, seriously, and it is lossy by definition, and it loses quite a bit of the original audio material in the encoding process regardless of whatever math the creator of it spews out. He's been dismissed countless times by professional audio engineers and the math just proves that MQA is nothing special at all.

But if you folks tell yourselves you can hear a difference there's nobody else that will ever change your mind - that's something you have to learn to do on your own after you sort through all the BS marketing double-speak and fancy wording that makes it sound (pun intended) like it's actually a good thing.

Good, thank you for establishing your background. In that case I trust that you DO understand what MQA loses (amplitude detail from the least significant bits in a 44/24 file, which I'd be very impressed if anybody can distinguish from noise) and what it adds (increased temporal accuracy from losslessly compressed 88/96KHz samples AND from lossy compressed 176/192KHz samples).

With that out of the way, I then presume when you compared to FLAC you meant to compare it with losslessly compressed HiRes PCM. And of course no disagreement there: I too would prefer the HiRes FLAC, as I'm sure would anybody (well, almost anybody). The debate is only when it comes to MQA vs Redbook. It does, objectively and measurably, add high frequency details and accuracy, but at the cost of some amplitude detail -- but not much, as the comparison is to Redbook 44/16 which already has 8 bits less amplitude detail. (I am ignoring the cases of 44/16 MQA since they are so rare, and I would agree pointless.)

It seems that many MQA haters live in parts of the world where bandwidth is abundant and affordable, and so they see no reason why to even bother with compression of HiRes music. In USA, however, wireless bandwidth is still a premium commodity (thanks to our "business friendly economy" which tolerates oligopolies and semi-cartelish behavior). So delivering HiRes music at a lower data rate is a valid trade-off. But of course less so in 5 years.

Now, believe it or not, there are people in this world with nuanced opinions, not all just dumb lemmings vs supremely informed critics. I happen to agree that MQA has been over-marketed by Meridian and Bob Stuart, and that they are overstating (and overcharging for) its benefits. I also agree that many MQA releases indeed are snake oil, because they were poor recordings in the first place or sloppily converted to MQA in an attempt to cash in on a fad.

My interest in MQA did NOT start with buying into any Meridian marketing, but rather because it is the format in which my preferred music streaming service (Tidal) delivers HiRes tracks. Heck, before V30 I had never heard fully rendered MQA. Until Qobuz reached our shores a few months ago, we had no other choice of HiRes streaming service. And any other benefits aside, Tidal MQA tracks have the added benefit of playing correctly in the Tidal app (i.e. Direct path to the DAC, without being molested by the Android Mixer) whereas 44/16 tracks (non-MQA) have to be played be through UAPP -- which doesn't support Tidal offline. Remember that bit about bandwidth still being costly in USA? See the connection?

Now, many of the MQA releases on Tidal are unfortunately of the sloppy variant. But among them are also some excellent recordings (I am listing a few examples below). So I've been listening to hundreds of hours of those, and there really is an audible difference when compared to their non-MQA (uncompressed 44/16) counterparts. Of course it's not screaming at you, just like HiRes vs Redbook isn't. And needless to say DTS and EQ and other effects will completely drown it out. But that little bit of extra clarity is audible, kind of like the difference between an anti-aliasing filter with too much pre & post-ringing vs a more natural filter.

So when I asked how much MQA you have actually listened to, I meant it -- in case you haven't listened a lot yourself, but merely concluded based on your extensive technical background and the reports from other MQA haters.

Among Tidal's classical catalog, there really are some excellent Master/MQA albums. To mention a few:


1) The entire catalog of newly transferred Everest Records' recordings. This label distinguished themselves by making very high quality 3-channel recordings on 35mm film tape back in late 1950s-1960s. For example, check Copland: Symphony No. 3 (the composer himself directing London Symphony Orchestra). But there are many others, both popular and more complex works. Search in Tidal for "Everest Records Master Tapes" and Show All Albums. They are $40 a pop as 192/24 on HDtracks.

2) Brahms: The Symphonies (Berlin Philharmonic, Simon Rattle). I know some people dislike Rattle for his earlier Mahler cycle, or even his personality. But to me these are the all-time best Brahms performances. Better than the BPO/Abbado cycle, which was my favorite before the Rattle cycle. For example, check the Andante movement from Symphony no. 3. I challenge anybody to show me any music, of any genre, more beautiful than this performance. Admittedly, this doesn't particularly show off MQA, as it's only based on 44/24 anyway.

3) Bruckner: The Complete Symphonies (Staatskapelle Berlin, Daniel Barenboim). When it comes to Wagner, I am out. But I do appreciate Bruckner's symphonies, and these are great performances and recordings. (When it comes to Bruckner's 9th symphony, though, I prefer this performance by Minnesota/Skrowaczewski released by Reference Recordings.)

4) Dvorák: Complete Symphonies & Concertos (Czech Philharmonic, Jiri Belohlavek). Excellent performances and recordings of these romantic era favorites: These musicians have Dvorák in their blood. (Growing up with Josef Suk's definitive 1976 performance of Dvorák's violin concerto, I have a hard time enjoying other performances of it. But Frank Peter Zimmermann does a fine job on this MQA set; and sound quality is infinitely better than the old Supraphon recording, even with its latest 2011 re-release.)

5) Mozart Violin Concertos (Trondheimsolistene, Marianne Thorsen). If you like Mozart, you will be hard pressed to find recordings with higher sound quality than these.

6) The Nordic Sound (2L Audiophile Reference Recordings). Many of these can be downloaded on http://www.2l.no/hires in a number of different resolutions.

Of course there any many others, but these come to mind as particularly excellent.


This is so far off topic for this thread, but I guess we're just killing time here anyway while waiting for the Pie update :D


The sooner MQA dies the better. It's just lossy cvasi-drm ridden snakeoil, totally controlled by a company that lies, threates, refuses to discuss about any aspect not in their agenda. They invented a pretext to totally controll all the chain, from studio to your headphones and every single entity involved should pay to them. If you care about sound and about being able to still listen in 5 years what you buy today, go for an open lossless format. All that pseudo-mumbo-jumbo MQA tries to lie about solving is because "bandwidth and space constrains". Really, in 2019 not enough space and bandwidth but audiophile with such high standards and V30? And still eager to go lossy? Absurd scenario IMO. If you have V30 and you have high standards, go for lossless, as high as you think you are able to hear: go 192/24 but do it in an open-lossless format, not in a proprietary one that will make all the music you buy unlistenable in few years. Encouraging this trend will hurt yourself, others and the whole industry. If enough users would by into this fake-magic, everyone would pay through their noses for Meridian being their favourite whore.

I agree with the objective facts in this: I would not spend money buying MQA albums either. I don't trust to always have MQA capable equipment on which to play them, and probably won't overpay for such equipment either. But most HiRes albums on HDtracks etc are quite expensive compared to their Redbook counterparts. So I am certainly enjoying the MQA albums on Tidal while I can.

Do note what I wrote above about wireless bandwidth in USA. For most people (certainly for me) streaming 192/24 isn't tenable, while streaming MQA is. And even then, I use Tidal offline most of them time and download while I am on WiFi. But again, that only works with MQA if you want to avoid re-sampling by the Android mixer.


They should still support MQA. Calling it snakeoil won't convince people who want to listen to "Masters" on their V30s.

Absolutely they should. The phone was marketed with hardware MQA as a feature. And maybe it still IS supported in hardware on Pie, but only from apps that pay MQA royalties. Either way that pisses me off as much as everybody else. And it means I'll stay on Oreo for now.
 
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TheDannemand

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Feb 12, 2008
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Friendly Reminder: Thread Title is NOT "Audio specific discussion about DAQ/MQA" but "Update on LG Official Pie Development"

You are absolutely right, and I apologize for my contributing to that derailment. It really just started with the following, which is very relevant to the discussion of the Pie update.

Personally I am in no hurry whatsoever to update to Pie. I'm hoping maybe they'll fix the audio issues that V40 et al experienced on Pie before it gets to V30, but not counting on it. At least the latest UAPP has workarounds for some of it. But still no hardware MQA in UAPP.

This led to the "MQA is snakeoil" arguments -- and me taking the bait and getting suckered in.

Again, I apologize for that. Over and out.
 
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BROKEN1981

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Dec 27, 2013
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Friendly Reminder: Thread Title is NOT "Audio specific discussion about DAQ/MQA" but "Update on LG Official Pie Development"
Ummmm.... This IS about the PIE update since they messed with a FEATURE we had in 8.0....

Sent from my LG-H932 using XDA Labs

---------- Post added at 02:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

This led to the "MQA is snakeoil" arguments -- and me taking the bait and getting suckered in.

Again, I apologize for that. Over and out.

I would not apologize for talking about a feature from 8.0 that's getting hurt in 9.0.

This conversation is still relevant.

Sent from my LG-H932 using XDA Labs
 
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  • 6
    Hey @br0adband
    Let's please return to the original topic of this thread: "Updates for LG Official Pie".
    If you guys want to carry on discussing pixel camera and debate that -> there's a seperate thread for that or simply go on private messages.
    6
    i thought of getting one of these... but idk if i can use the ota zip at all... ?
    aka force an ota update thats "not made" for my phone
    otas are sadly delta updates... so just extracting it wont work

    I have the tools needed to convert a delta update to a full update -- so if someone has a credit card that will work on that site, I will be willing to pay for it.

    My OP7 Pro hasn't arrived, so I am still kicking with my US998 for now ;)

    -- Brian
    6
    For those people that stick to and focus on the delays in the monthly security patches that Google pushes out, think of this for a moment:

    Is your device currently compromised? Do you even know? Would you even know how to discover it's compromised? Are you fully apprised of each and every possible exploit that exists for Android right now this moment? Do you subscribe to the security sites that publish information about such exploits? Is the only thing that matters to you these monthly security patches that Google pushes out to OEMs?

    is your device "infected" by something right now at this exact moment in time that happened or was able to infect your device because it's using a security patch from a few months ago that didn't cover the infection of exploit?

    No?

    Then what the hell are you crying about?

    All I ever see are people complaining about the lack of security patch updates and yet nobody is actively complaining "OMFGWTFBBQ, my device is infected... I've been exploited..." or words to that effect and yet our devices work just fine.

    You have to realize that when Google pushes out a security patch it's out of their hands at that point and it's up to device manufacturers to release it past that point, yes, this is a well known fact. But those device manufacturers have to test it on their devices pretty thoroughly before they can allow it to be pushed out as an OTA or downloadable update for any given devices 'cause if they just pass it on immediately to their end users that own their devices and it screws something up for a portion of their customers that just makes things WORSE for not only those customers, but others that are considering applying said patches/updates not to mention the device manufacturer as well.

    Seriously, stop whining, it's old - it's been old for a long long time now and yet it still happens. If you want "on time" security patches and updates, buy a Google device, or go buy a used Essential Phone or something ('cause Andy Rubin's team has very close ties with Google which is the primary reason that device gets it's own updates so quickly), or maybe something from BlackBerry (same principle).

    Geez, man, get over it. I've used LG devices for years, I've used Samsung devices for years, I used to use Motorola devices but to Hell with 'em for screwing over their customers so many times (I'm an original 1st day Atrix and Bionic owner screwed both times for Android major updates, and apparently they just announced last week they're not going to provide the major update for some of their current or recent flagships all over again). I've owned devices from most every major manufacturer and NONE of them have ever suffered any kind of exploit or infection or malware related to a delayed security patch update.

    And I don't know a single person that has either.

    I don't buy Google devices except for the original Galaxy Nexus and the Nexus 6 but those were used and at crazy insane prices that I couldn't pass up but were sold quickly afterward for profit But if you absolutely MUST have the latest and greatest and you want those monthly security patches and updates the moment they're available, get a Google device and stop your incessant whining about it for LG, Samsung, etc.

    I mean really, grow up, will ya? :D
    5
    No, what we said was official Pie would at least start with 30a or 30-something.

    If they're already up to H930 30b without general public release, then something was found to be wrong with 30a and it was just late beta.



    Sent via open market LG US998 V30/V30+

    Exactly... basically V30a was a Release Candidate, it was in testing, they found a critical error, thats why V30b was released... thats now in testing again, and if stable (or whatever else the reason was they had to fix stuff) it will release to all european H930s in probably 2 - 4 weeks (depends how long they end up testing, but thats the general timespan between compile date and release date based on history).
    5
    Thank you, if you can share 29a file for H870 :good::good:

    If you are to sell the up file to the ignorant people and slander the innocent person like me, I won't share the link that you want.
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