Question Vivo x90 pro+ vs S23U

[Lexxmark]

Look into the topic of s23u on dpreview forum, the Samsung is classes better on 50 and especially 200MP mode, so there's loads of potential in the sensor. Need to wait at least for 17.02 Day 1 update which by iceuniverse promises big updates to the camera before assessing much. the 200mp pixel Photos are pretty much best out of any stock camera so far, better than vivo 50mp. If Samsung would enable full resolution on camera 2 API many people claim it would be unbeatable. Yeah vivo full resolution on camera 2 would also change a lot seeing that 12.5mp gcam beats 50mp from stock most of the time...
Right now s23u camera clearly has problems.

I only see huge problems of colours in difficult situations of X90 (hard to fix in post) and colours that should be in between vivid and Zeiss otherwise (can be fixed easily in post but bad out of the box). For colours out of the box pixel rules, and apple second.

I strongly disagree. I was in the store and compared the quality of S23Ultra with my X90 pro plus (200Mp vs 50Mp). So, Samsung has slightly better details (barely noticeable), but much more noise. Thus, I can conclude that 200Mp is just a marketing trick, nothing more. And the Samsung as had a crappy camera, so it still has it!

 

[Lexxmark]

The most important aspect to consider, IMHO, is that the Vivo achieves this with a 3.9x zoom lens, which means at zoom range between 3.9x and 10x the Vivo will produce better images.

Because in "real life", you're much more likely to take 4x or 5x or maybe 7x shots than 10x shots. At these focal lengths, the Samsung can only use its 10MP 3x lens with a tiny 1/3.52" sensor, but the Vivo can use a 1/2" 64MP sensor.
So most of the time for zooming, the Vivo is more useful. Unless you're a bird photographer I guess.

The 10x lens in the S23U is only useful for bragging rights and moon shots, but for a "real life" photographer the Vivo offers by far the more versatile camera, because it can produce good images at ANY zoom up to 10x.

I compared the Vivo to my Sony a6400 mirrorless APS-C with the kit lens at different focal lengths (the a6400 kit lens is 24-75mm full frame equivalent) and honestly, most of the time the Vivo produced more pleasant images with less noise, better dynamic range and the same amount of detail.

TL;DR: The Vivo can replace a mirrorless camera for everyday photography - the Samsung can't, because the lens selection focuses on "bragging rights" instead of versatility.

It's not quite true. I also have 90 pro plus and Sony a6400 and can say that Sony has much more details than Vivo, even if we compare 24Mp on Sony and 50Mp on Vivo. As for the noise, you just don't know how to tune the Sony

 

[P6P]

I strongly disagree. I was in the store and compared the quality of S23Ultra with my X90 pro plus (200Mp vs 50Mp). So, Samsung has slightly better details (barely noticeable), but much more noise. Thus, I can conclude that 200Mp is just a marketing trick, nothing more. And the Samsung as had a crappy camera, so it still has it!

Yeah I can confirm that the main sensor struggles with a lot of noise.

 

[mbfamily]

Interesting point about the zoom.
Indeed, I rarely felt the need for a 10x (or more) zoom, but often could use somewhere in between the fixed focal length and the 10x. But of course I never use that on my P30 pro because digital zoom is terrible.
So just to be clear - the quality of the digital zoom that takes over when you exceed the 3.9x native zoom is all at least as good at the 10x because it's using the large 64mp sensor?
That's a bit of a game-changer nobody talks about!

Yes, it's amazingly good up to about 10x. Of course it's just an approximation, but you can do some maths: The 3.9x 64MP sensor's 0.7um pixels are equivalent to 16MP 1.4um pixels, or, for comparison with the S23U, 10MP 2.24um pixels (1.4*16/10).
Now, if go from 3.9x to 7.8x, you need to divide the pixel size by 2, i.e. you're left with an equivalent of 10MP 1.12um pixels.
Now look at the S23U spec sheet: The 10x 10MP lens is 1/3.52" with 1.12um sized pixels.

As a result, you can expect roughly the same image quality from the Vivo at 7.8x zoom compared to the S23U at 10x zoom.
Of course, that means the S23U delivers better images above 10x.

But here's the catch: At 9x zoom, the Samsung can't use its 10x lens! It has to fall back to the 3x lens. Anything between 3.9x and 9.9x => The Vivo wins easily!

So, the S23U is good for bragging rights with moon shots and bird photography and maybe if you plan to spy on people

But it does not offer a "gradual" zoom that you need for everyday photography, that emulates what you would normally be able to do with a DSLR zoom lens - only the Vivo can do that, because of the large high resolution periscope camera.

And what about 1-3.9x? You can do the same maths. The Vivo main sensor for example is 50MP with 1.6um pixels. If you zoom in up to 2x using the main sensor, you're left with 12.5MP 1.6um pixels, and between 2x and 3x the Vivo can use the 2x portrait lens with 12.5MP 1.4um pixels (binned) at 2x and an equivalent of approximately 0.8um pixels at 3x. Compare that to the S23U main sensor's 12.5MP 1.4um (binned) at 2x and approximately 0.6um equivalent at 3x, before the 3x lens kicks in.

It's only between 3x and 3.9x that the S23U has an advantage, where it can use the dedicated 3x lens.

Shouldnt the pixel size be way larger on the S23 though? 10mp on 1/3.52" sounds larger to me than 64mp on 1/2", but Im too lazy to do the math here. The vivo one is probably binned as well, not sure if that is a pro.

See above

Of course it's not that simple, there are a lot of other factors, like lens quality, aperture size and of course the software!

But doing the maths on pixel sizes still usually gives you a good idea about the image quality you can expect from a phone.

 

[mbfamily]

It's not quite true. I also have 90 pro plus and Sony a6400 and can say that Sony has much more details than Vivo, even if we compare 24Mp on Sony and 50Mp on Vivo. As for the noise, you just don't know how to tune the Sony

I wouldn't say lots more detail Yes the Sony can produce more detail, but the Vivo gives me 90% of the image quality with 10% the effort and tuning. And it's lighter. So personally I am selling the Sony
My main phone is still an iPhone 14 Pro, because of the software, but I'm keeping the Vivo for photography because I think it's the first phone ever that can actually replace a mirrorless camera (with kit lens). The S23U can't do that.

 

[P6P]

I wouldn't say lots more detail Yes the Sony can produce more detail, but the Vivo gives me 90% of the image quality with 10% the effort and tuning. And it's lighter. So personally I am selling the Sony
My main phone is still an iPhone 14 Pro, because of the software, but I'm keeping the Vivo for photography because I think it's the first phone ever that can actually replace a mirrorless camera (with kit lens). The S23U can't do that.

Well at least it's almost comparable to a mirror less camera. No other phone is in that position.

 

[Haskren]

Yes, it's amazingly good up to about 10x. Of course it's just an approximation, but you can do some maths: The 3.9x 64MP sensor's 0.7um pixels are equivalent to 16MP 1.4um pixels, or, for comparison with the S23U, 10MP 2.24um pixels (1.4*16/10).
Now, if go from 3.9x to 7.8x, you need to divide the pixel size by 2, i.e. you're left with an equivalent of 10MP 1.12um pixels.
Now look at the S23U spec sheet: The 10x 10MP lens is 1/3.52" with 1.12um sized pixels.

As a result, you can expect roughly the same image quality from the Vivo at 7.8x zoom compared to the S23U at 10x zoom.
Of course, that means the S23U delivers better images above 10x.

But here's the catch: At 9x zoom, the Samsung can't use its 10x lens! It has to fall back to the 3x lens. Anything between 3.9x and 9.9x => The Vivo wins easily!

So, the S23U is good for bragging rights with moon shots and bird photography and maybe if you plan to spy on people

But it does not offer a "gradual" zoom that you need for everyday photography, that emulates what you would normally be able to do with a DSLR zoom lens - only the Vivo can do that, because of the large high resolution periscope camera.

And what about 1-3.9x? You can do the same maths. The Vivo main sensor for example is 50MP with 1.6um pixels. If you zoom in up to 2x using the main sensor, you're left with 12.5MP 1.6um pixels, and between 2x and 3x the Vivo can use the 2x portrait lens with 12.5MP 1.4um pixels (binned) at 2x and an equivalent of approximately 0.8um pixels at 3x. Compare that to the S23U main sensor's 12.5MP 1.4um (binned) at 2x and approximately 0.6um equivalent at 3x, before the 3x lens kicks in.

It's only between 3x and 3.9x that the S23U has an advantage, where it can use the dedicated 3x lens.



See above

Of course it's not that simple, there are a lot of other factors, like lens quality, aperture size and of course the software!

But doing the maths on pixel sizes still usually gives you a good idea about the image quality you can expect from a phone.

Great analysis, thank you!
You just gave me the final push to order the Vivo At some point I was leaning towards the S23U, but I just wasn't excited - Vivo is special in so many ways, and not something you will see in the hands of others

 

[mbfamily]

Great analysis, thank you!
You just gave me the final push to order the Vivo At some point I was leaning towards the S23U, but I just wasn't excited - Vivo is special in so many ways, and not something you will see in the hands of others

Definitely. It has a lot of strong points. I think the hardware is perfect in terms of what is possible today, but also, very surprisingly, the OS even "feels" more fluid and natural to use than the iPhone 14 Pro. I think it's the first Android phone ever that actually beats the iPhone in that regard.

BUT it's not a perfect phone at all. You need to be aware that it's a Chinese phone with Chinese software. Many things need a lot of tweaking, debloating, replacing the Chinese apps etc. And some things just won't work, like Android Auto.

I debloated everything except for the OriginOS launcher and the stock camera and then replaced all the apps, even the dialer, with Simple Mobile Tools apps (https://www.simplemobiletools.com/). I think it's quite a nice experience. Another possibility is replacing them with Google apps, you can find Google dialer, calendar, gallery etc. on the Play store.

If you like tweaking and modifying (maybe you do, because you're on XDA devs ) and you don't care about some things like Android Auto, then the Vivo has a lot to offer, because the hardware is amazing.
But for many people, the S23 certainly would be a better choice.

 

[P6P]

 

[Haskren]

Finally, thanks!!!!

 

[Killuminati91]

Take a look at 2:36 when he walks down the stairs. Vivo has the same issues as every other phone before (visible in the wobbling lights, especially on the horizon) while Samsung somehow fixed that. Incredible. Both phones are finally worth an update, I think Samsung is better in video while vivo is on top in photography if you like that DSLR look.

 

[Haskren]

Take a look at 2:36 when he walks down the stairs. Vivo has the same issues as every other phone before (visible in the wobbling lights, especially on the horizon) while Samsung somehow fixed that. Incredible. Both phones are finally worth an update, I think Samsung is better in video while vivo is on top in photography if you like that DSLR look.

To be honest, I found this comparison way too superficial. The Vivo excels in low light, but we had no pixel peeping to illustrate the noise difference. I think the low light shots were taken in night mode which is pointless for the purpose of comparing the sensors. Any phone can produce decent looking night shots with a long shutterspeed, not all phones can do it handheld with low noise.
Also, it would be obvious to compare the hdr capabilities, particularly highlight detail in low light to show the zeiss/V2 chip abilities vs the Samsung. Ben certainly didn't step on anyone's toes in this review

My biggest takeaway is the awesome depth of field which only a 1" sensor can produce. Sold

 

[djshotty]

I find it's understandable manufacturers do not like to warranty rooted/unlocked devices due to the high chance of someone bricking their device in the process. It's giving the user a choice (and after 1 or 2 years depending on the manufacturer it's end of warranty anyhow).

As far as I'm concerned, if a person buys a smartphone and pays over US$1000 for it, they should be able to utilise every single facet of that device's hardware capability. The reason why I want root access is purely to edit the gps.conf file so I can calibrate the device's compass and GPS chip to be more accurate. One thing's for sure, NONE of the ten Samsung phones I've owned running unbranded stock firmware for my region (Australia/XSA) has EVER been properly linked to the correct GPS pool for Oceania/Australasia, which has always made any navigation app not work too great. I don't exactly care how good the X90 Pro Plus camera is, because it's pretty much a deal breaker if Vivo aren't going to allow BL unlock.

 

[Haskren]

Still no in-depth comparisons to be found. Well isn't it convenient for Samsung that during the preorder period, reviewers suddenly forgot about the phone they were raving about, and only pit the s23u against phones it can beat...

 

[djmaxi]

Bl unlock doesn't mean anything about update frequency. But with official unlock (not unlock via Potential security bug) most popular phones will have a custom ROM community providing updates for a long time, while with without you are at mercy of the manufacturer. Just look up the update threads about older flagships like 50pro+ or 70pro+ to see how likely updates are on 90pro+. Does not look good to me.. . Vivo's update policy is only for international market. Right now X90 even with trial version is stuck on December security patches. S23U will receive February patches on 17 February (it's not officially available until then - strange release by Samsung this time)

I proved all my facts somewhere here before with screenshots or sources (or Link to fast connect 7800 at Qualcomm which states WiFi 7 compatibility which isn't advertised for X90 pro+. Not even WiFi 6e (though it could be possible it's supported but just not advertised in specs).

I reported vendetta17 now for breaking points 2.3 and 2.4 of the forum rules. He accuses me of lying without being able to prove a single lie.

And I posted positive points, quite a lot. This is one of the best cameras on a smartphone. I think even better than place 10 as dxomark indicates as their protocol doesn't value secondary lenses much. I see it as top 6 or 7 right now even for point and shoot. If you shoot RAW only and need huge prints then it's even the best (but I feel apple workflow with RAW is much easier, also s23U has better workflow with RAW as Lightroom comes already pre-installed but quality wise X90 Pro+ is better). Seeing basically very little mention of RAW and super RAW in relation to the X90 pro+ makes me feel professional photographers avoid Vivo phones no matter how much Vivo touts professional photography at it's press releases. Samsung or apple or google forums on the contrary are full with questions or remarks on RAW and comparisons to the jpg output.

If the X90 pro+ would be half price of s23U, iphone 14 pro max then I would praise it too. If it was even just the price of Pixel 7 pro and would have the same update policy I would recommend it all out. At current prices without any update policy and seeing that x50 Pro+ basically stopped getting updates after 2.5 years, and other Vivo x series being neglected after only a year I don't see it recommendable. It was the first phone with 8gen2 and vivo paid for that exclusive right to Qualcomm. It's not comparable to mate 20 pro or p30 Pro which were albeit slower updates great phones and aged well at cheaper price than other flagships back then. Yes right on hardware it looks great, just like s23U too, but not software.....

 

[extremecarver]

View attachment 5834057

Yes I've seen that one, but it clearly doesn't have the features of fast connect 7800 like wi-fi 6e/7 but only the features of fast connect 6900.

 

[djmaxi]

Yes I've seen that one, but it clearly doesn't have the features of fast connect 7800 like wi-fi 6e/7 but only the features of fast connect 6900.

As you said, 6E and 7 are not functional. Even though we shouldn't rule out that it could be a 7800 modem firmware capped. Qualcomm was a launching partner and I don't think they will mislead everyone specially when things like this may have legal, financial and brand image implications.And yes mistakes were made in the past but let's just have a more cautious approach until we can get more solid evidence.
As you, I'm also eager to know more.

 

[extremecarver]

I cannot find a single exclusive feature of 7800 which would be present on the x90 pro+.
If you find one, then point it out. Yes Qualcomm at some point said x90 pro+ would come with 7800, vivo however never advertised it on their x90 pro+ site. That's why I can only assume it's 6900 (it has all the features of that one and they capped 6e sadly.)

Simply doesn't make sense that it would be 7800. They are both built on the same platform, why cap it then?

I guess they tested it and then saved the money because the main feature, 6g wifi is not approved in China (Xiaomi did use it because wi-fi 7 has some more advantages also without 6g, but 7 isn't ready yet but Xiaomi promised to upgrade it once ready)

 

[extremecarver]

Because ant+ is also missing, that exists in China. I tried installing the software for it but it's clearly missing.

 

[Haskren]

First reviewer to step out of line by admitting Vivo is the better camera phone for photography.